6 ms·

I believe it. After picking up cycling a couple years ago, I've noticed I am a lot more aware of bikes on the road, and drive with more care. I've also notice

by moonka 9y ago

I believe it. After picking up cycling a couple years ago, I've noticed I am a lot more aware of bikes on the road, and drive with more care. I've also noticed my family driving more carefully around bikes as I've mentioned close calls I've had. I imagine it also leads to more willingness to invest in cycling infrastructure, which tends to make things safer as well.

dkarl 9y ago
I think cyclists create a halo effect because they create a stigma against harming cyclists in their social circle. People who are confident that they aren't personally connected to any cyclists openly joke about running them down. The only consequences they worry about if they hit a cyclist are legal ones, and when cycling is rare and "weird," they know there probably won't be any. When, on the other hand, they know there are cyclists among their coworkers or in their social circle, or if cycling is prevalent enough that they feel it's likely, they start to worry about the stigma that will attach to them if somebody finds out they knocked down a cyclist or carelessly put a cyclist in danger. They're forced to pay attention in a way that they didn't have to before. Many people hate this change, by the way. It scares them that an attitude they used to be able to joke about in a positive way is now something they have to hide. It makes them angry that they have to invest effort and attention for the benefit of people they feel opposed to. It's easy for progressives to simply see it as "progress" and not realize that it leaves a lot of people feeling like losers.
- BurningFrog 9y ago
  Do you actually know people who have no ethical problems killing random cyclists?
  - davidw 9y ago
    It's pretty common to talk that way on the internet. Also stuff like this is pretty common: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10154488392421642&id=575201641 https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1015448839242164...
  - dahart 9y ago
    I don't know any personally, but I know they exist. A friend of mine was killed by one intentionally in South Carolina. https://www.bikelaw.com/2011/10/s-c-driver-convicted-of-felony-for-killing-cyclist/ https://www.bikelaw.com/2011/10/s-c-driver-convicted-of-felo... "Throughout the country, cycling deaths are regularly dismissed by law enforcement as mere traffic ‘accidents.’ But often they are not accidental, the needless fatalities are tragic consequences of reckless driving and lawless drivers."
  - analog31 9y ago
    I've had people deliberately swerve towards me, presumably to frighten me. My spouse once fell off her bike when she had to avoid a car that cut in front of her (I was a witness, being about 20 feet behind her). Just last week, a vehicle appeared to slow down for me to cross the road, and just as I began to proceed, he gunned his engine and forced me to make a panic stop. Also, I've had things thrown at me on more than one occasion. Yes, violence by motorists against cyclists is a thing. Even if it's just a threat or a joke, it's still assault.
- peller 9y ago
  > Many people hate this change, by the way. It scares them that an attitude they used to be able to joke about in a positive way is now something they have to hide. It makes them angry that they have to invest effort and attention for the benefit of people they feel opposed to. It's easy for progressives to simply see it as "progress" and not realize that it leaves a lot of people feeling like losers. I get the point you're trying to make, but if you read that out of context, it sounds a lot like an apt comparison to what parts of society have been going through with racism (or sexism, or...). It may leave a lot of people "feeling like losers" but to put it bluntly, when a group of people are flat out wrong, such 'side effects' can happen, and I'm not sure that's such a bad thing...
  - jsharf 9y ago
    So I think you're right. But that doesn't mean you can't be nice to people who are wrong. Often times these people hate ideas or opinions because those ideas challenges their perceived identity or values. Often these people are insecure. Someone who just drastically had their opinion changed might feel pretty troubled, and being understanding that their worldview has just changed can avoid a lot of friction. As long as you don't forget that they're still wrong.
    - peller 9y ago
      Agreed, thanks for pointing this out!
- analog31 9y ago
  What I've observed is not quite as extreme: People are deadly scared that they might injure a cyclist. But they believe that cycling on roads is unreasonably dangerous, so they blame the cyclist for endangering themselves. They may also associate cycling with children, and get mad in the same way that they'd get mad if they caught their own kids playing mumblety peg with the chainsaw. The kids don't deserve to get injured, but you're mad at them nonetheless. But once people gain a reasonable level of comfort riding a bike on roads, they're still scared of hitting a cyclist while driving a car, but less likely to think the cyclist is being inherently stupid by riding on the road.
  - dvtv75 9y ago
    > But they believe that cycling on roads is unreasonably dangerous, so they > blame the cyclist for endangering themselves. Speaking from personal experience, as a driver I absolutely hate cyclists. Weaving through traffic at speeds slower than the vehicles they cut off, no indication of intended lane changes, running of compulsory stops, shortcuts across footpaths only to pull out in front of vehicles that have right-of-way. I've seen them push their bikes through red lights, to avoid the "but you rode through a red light so you're in the wrong" legal consequence they might face if hit. There was one group of adults and children who overtook me on the side I was indicating and moving to turn, once. That's most illegal here, and I nearly hit them. (They blamed me, but the police blamed them when I phoned the complaint in. "If you ever see that again, have your passenger phone us and you follow them, so we can have a chat with them about safe road use.") Then there are the times I was a pedestrian. I've been crossing the road at a controlled intersection at one particular location for several years, and in that time I've nearly been hit by a car once. I'm nearly hit by cyclists running red lights there at least once a month, usually a lot more often than that. One particularly stupid individual on a bike was doing about 45mph on the footpath, cutting blind corners very closely. Nearly hit me three days in a row, and if he had I would have been hospitalized just because of the speed he was doing - stupid little %@#! went on Facebook and started bitching about how a pedestrian had been in his way, I later heard, even though he was riding illegally. Another one - who should be nominated for an honorary Darwin Award - was trying to squeeze between two parked buses. Had my friend (the driver) not noticed, the cyclist would have been crushed to death. Why do I hate them? Unpredictability. Many of them are car drivers (weather extremes in my town make year-round cycling a rather miserable affair) who know they shouldn't be doing these things, but they don't care because how will anybody track them down if they don't have plates? I'm not going suggesting that all cyclists are like this by any means, nor am I going to get into drivers because that would be off topic. I'm simply trying to add a little perspective as to why drivers may dislike cyclists. I am very much in favor of physically separated spaces for cyclists (although how controlled intersections would work is a topic I leave for civil engineers and law enforcement).
dheera 9y ago
Definitely. When I moved to Boston for my undergraduate studies many years ago, I used to be cursed at by SUV drivers all the time who would cut me off and do other dangerous things, basically disrespecting my right to life. Thankfully I never had an accident because I'm extremely defensive and try to predict the types of errors cars could make. When I left Boston a couple years ago it was way better. People recognized that bikes had a right to be on the street. Not all drivers behaved well but it was far, far better than before. At least people recognized that bikes have a right to exist on the road, and that was accomplished mainly by numbers. With numbers also came bike lanes, bike paths, and other good things. I do a lot of long-distance biking in Asia during my vacations and I consistently feel much safer there than in the US (I've done more cycling in China, but also Japan, Myanmar, Vietnam, Taiwan, and other places). A big part of this has to do with the fact that there are just so many people on bikes, tricycles, and other low-speed vehicles that it's hard for drivers to not notice. And nobody will ever curse at you for riding a bicycle. It's an extremely normal thing to do for the masses.

by moonka 9y ago

dkarl 9y ago

I think cyclists create a halo effect because they create a stigma against harming cyclists in their social circle. People who are confident that they aren't personally connected to any cyclists openly joke about running them down. The only consequences they worry about if they hit a cyclist are legal ones, and when cycling is rare and "weird," they know there probably won't be any. When, on the other hand, they know there are cyclists among their coworkers or in their social circle, or if cycling is prevalent enough that they feel it's likely, they start to worry about the stigma that will attach to them if somebody finds out they knocked down a cyclist or carelessly put a cyclist in danger. They're forced to pay attention in a way that they didn't have to before. Many people hate this change, by the way. It scares them that an attitude they used to be able to joke about in a positive way is now something they have to hide. It makes them angry that they have to invest effort and attention for the benefit of people they feel opposed to. It's easy for progressives to simply see it as "progress" and not realize that it leaves a lot of people feeling like losers.

BurningFrog 9y ago
Do you actually know people who have no ethical problems killing random cyclists?
- davidw 9y ago
  It's pretty common to talk that way on the internet. Also stuff like this is pretty common: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10154488392421642&id=575201641 https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1015448839242164...
- dahart 9y ago
  I don't know any personally, but I know they exist. A friend of mine was killed by one intentionally in South Carolina. https://www.bikelaw.com/2011/10/s-c-driver-convicted-of-felony-for-killing-cyclist/ https://www.bikelaw.com/2011/10/s-c-driver-convicted-of-felo... "Throughout the country, cycling deaths are regularly dismissed by law enforcement as mere traffic ‘accidents.’ But often they are not accidental, the needless fatalities are tragic consequences of reckless driving and lawless drivers."
- analog31 9y ago
  I've had people deliberately swerve towards me, presumably to frighten me. My spouse once fell off her bike when she had to avoid a car that cut in front of her (I was a witness, being about 20 feet behind her). Just last week, a vehicle appeared to slow down for me to cross the road, and just as I began to proceed, he gunned his engine and forced me to make a panic stop. Also, I've had things thrown at me on more than one occasion. Yes, violence by motorists against cyclists is a thing. Even if it's just a threat or a joke, it's still assault.
peller 9y ago
> Many people hate this change, by the way. It scares them that an attitude they used to be able to joke about in a positive way is now something they have to hide. It makes them angry that they have to invest effort and attention for the benefit of people they feel opposed to. It's easy for progressives to simply see it as "progress" and not realize that it leaves a lot of people feeling like losers. I get the point you're trying to make, but if you read that out of context, it sounds a lot like an apt comparison to what parts of society have been going through with racism (or sexism, or...). It may leave a lot of people "feeling like losers" but to put it bluntly, when a group of people are flat out wrong, such 'side effects' can happen, and I'm not sure that's such a bad thing...
- jsharf 9y ago
  So I think you're right. But that doesn't mean you can't be nice to people who are wrong. Often times these people hate ideas or opinions because those ideas challenges their perceived identity or values. Often these people are insecure. Someone who just drastically had their opinion changed might feel pretty troubled, and being understanding that their worldview has just changed can avoid a lot of friction. As long as you don't forget that they're still wrong.
  - peller 9y ago
    Agreed, thanks for pointing this out!
analog31 9y ago
What I've observed is not quite as extreme: People are deadly scared that they might injure a cyclist. But they believe that cycling on roads is unreasonably dangerous, so they blame the cyclist for endangering themselves. They may also associate cycling with children, and get mad in the same way that they'd get mad if they caught their own kids playing mumblety peg with the chainsaw. The kids don't deserve to get injured, but you're mad at them nonetheless. But once people gain a reasonable level of comfort riding a bike on roads, they're still scared of hitting a cyclist while driving a car, but less likely to think the cyclist is being inherently stupid by riding on the road.
- dvtv75 9y ago
  > But they believe that cycling on roads is unreasonably dangerous, so they > blame the cyclist for endangering themselves. Speaking from personal experience, as a driver I absolutely hate cyclists. Weaving through traffic at speeds slower than the vehicles they cut off, no indication of intended lane changes, running of compulsory stops, shortcuts across footpaths only to pull out in front of vehicles that have right-of-way. I've seen them push their bikes through red lights, to avoid the "but you rode through a red light so you're in the wrong" legal consequence they might face if hit. There was one group of adults and children who overtook me on the side I was indicating and moving to turn, once. That's most illegal here, and I nearly hit them. (They blamed me, but the police blamed them when I phoned the complaint in. "If you ever see that again, have your passenger phone us and you follow them, so we can have a chat with them about safe road use.") Then there are the times I was a pedestrian. I've been crossing the road at a controlled intersection at one particular location for several years, and in that time I've nearly been hit by a car once. I'm nearly hit by cyclists running red lights there at least once a month, usually a lot more often than that. One particularly stupid individual on a bike was doing about 45mph on the footpath, cutting blind corners very closely. Nearly hit me three days in a row, and if he had I would have been hospitalized just because of the speed he was doing - stupid little %@#! went on Facebook and started bitching about how a pedestrian had been in his way, I later heard, even though he was riding illegally. Another one - who should be nominated for an honorary Darwin Award - was trying to squeeze between two parked buses. Had my friend (the driver) not noticed, the cyclist would have been crushed to death. Why do I hate them? Unpredictability. Many of them are car drivers (weather extremes in my town make year-round cycling a rather miserable affair) who know they shouldn't be doing these things, but they don't care because how will anybody track them down if they don't have plates? I'm not going suggesting that all cyclists are like this by any means, nor am I going to get into drivers because that would be off topic. I'm simply trying to add a little perspective as to why drivers may dislike cyclists. I am very much in favor of physically separated spaces for cyclists (although how controlled intersections would work is a topic I leave for civil engineers and law enforcement).

dheera 9y ago

Definitely. When I moved to Boston for my undergraduate studies many years ago, I used to be cursed at by SUV drivers all the time who would cut me off and do other dangerous things, basically disrespecting my right to life. Thankfully I never had an accident because I'm extremely defensive and try to predict the types of errors cars could make. When I left Boston a couple years ago it was way better. People recognized that bikes had a right to be on the street. Not all drivers behaved well but it was far, far better than before. At least people recognized that bikes have a right to exist on the road, and that was accomplished mainly by numbers. With numbers also came bike lanes, bike paths, and other good things. I do a lot of long-distance biking in Asia during my vacations and I consistently feel much safer there than in the US (I've done more cycling in China, but also Japan, Myanmar, Vietnam, Taiwan, and other places). A big part of this has to do with the fact that there are just so many people on bikes, tricycles, and other low-speed vehicles that it's hard for drivers to not notice. And nobody will ever curse at you for riding a bicycle. It's an extremely normal thing to do for the masses.