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Rubbish. Coding-at-all can be self-learned. Computer science requires formal teaching. Good, industrial-quality coding requires mentoring. When I graduated f

Rubbish. Coding-at-all can be self-learned. Computer science requires formal teaching. Good, industrial-quality coding requires mentoring. When I graduated from university, my code was crap and I barely even knew the words "version control". When I had some internships and finished my MSc, I kinda knew what version control was. After I was a year into my first Real Job, then I could actually do testing, code formatting, and commit messaging properly, then I could produce code that would pass review and get merged without problem, and mostly wouldn't create regression problems. This is learned on the job, every time, for every person.

dozzie 9y ago
> Good, industrial-quality coding requires mentoring. For some value of "good", "industrial-quality", "requires", and "mentoring". I belive, for instance, that it's perfectly attainable to learn how to write robust production code without getting somebody to learn that from. I've seen it happen.
- Clubber 9y ago
  It's possible, but it's a lot more painful. "Learning the hard way," is called that for a reason. When building enterprise class software, learning the hard way involves a lot of production downtime and scalability issues that could be avoided by someone who has done it before.
  - dozzie 9y ago
    Funny choice of words, you know. "Enterprise class software" I've seen up to now is mostly overcomplicated, slow, resource-hungry garbage beyond repair. I don't think people writing "enterprise class software" for living have much to teach anybody with regard to scalability or operations.
    - Clubber 9y ago
      They can be. Maybe you need to work in better shops. It is, by definition all of that: Although there is no single, widely accepted list of enterprise software characteristics,[4] they generally include performance, scalability, and robustness. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enterprise_software https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enterprise_software
      - dozzie 9y ago
        > Maybe you need to work in better shops. Yeah, for example ones that don't use CM Synergy, ClearCase, BMC Remedy, Jira, or Confluence (though I hear the latter two can be tuned to run sensibly). It all depends on the definition of "enterprise class", but all of the above are sold as such and you cannot encounter any of them in small companies. And by the definition you cited, half of the software only sold to enterprises suddenly becomes non-enterprise. It's also a circular definition in this discussion, because we could learn from "enterprise class software" how to treat "a lot of production downtime and scalability issues", because "enterprise class software" is "performant, scalabile, and robust", by your own words and quotes.
        Clubber 9y ago
        I'm not sure what you are talking about, but I'm talking about building enterprise class software in-house as opposed to buying generic software off the shelf. This is the software the business uses to run operations. If you organization has resolved to buying it's operations software off the shelf, like Oracle EBS, it's already admitted it can't develop software. I'm getting the feeling we are talking about different things. All of those things you listed are bug tracking / management software. I'm talking operational software that runs the business. It's all custom and fits like a glove if the business is competent.
        dozzie 9y ago
        > If you organization has resolved to buying it's operations software off the shelf, like Oracle EBS, it's already admitted it can't develop software. If "I" organization has resolved to buying "it has" software, it still does not mean that the organization cannot write software. ERP systems or HR systems, for instance, are rarely written in-house, even if the company does nothing but writes software. > I'm getting the feeling we are talking about different things. Obviously. That's why I said: "funny choice of words". > All of those things you listed are bug tracking / management software. Not even half of them, but it doesn't matter here. > I'm talking operational software that runs the business. It's all custom and fits like a glove if the business is competent. And you should have started with providing this as your definition of "enterprise class software". I would never have thought that this is what you meant.

dozzie 9y ago

> Good, industrial-quality coding requires mentoring. For some value of "good", "industrial-quality", "requires", and "mentoring". I belive, for instance, that it's perfectly attainable to learn how to write robust production code without getting somebody to learn that from. I've seen it happen.

Clubber 9y ago
It's possible, but it's a lot more painful. "Learning the hard way," is called that for a reason. When building enterprise class software, learning the hard way involves a lot of production downtime and scalability issues that could be avoided by someone who has done it before.
- dozzie 9y ago
  Funny choice of words, you know. "Enterprise class software" I've seen up to now is mostly overcomplicated, slow, resource-hungry garbage beyond repair. I don't think people writing "enterprise class software" for living have much to teach anybody with regard to scalability or operations.
  - Clubber 9y ago
    They can be. Maybe you need to work in better shops. It is, by definition all of that: Although there is no single, widely accepted list of enterprise software characteristics,[4] they generally include performance, scalability, and robustness. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enterprise_software https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enterprise_software
    - dozzie 9y ago
      > Maybe you need to work in better shops. Yeah, for example ones that don't use CM Synergy, ClearCase, BMC Remedy, Jira, or Confluence (though I hear the latter two can be tuned to run sensibly). It all depends on the definition of "enterprise class", but all of the above are sold as such and you cannot encounter any of them in small companies. And by the definition you cited, half of the software only sold to enterprises suddenly becomes non-enterprise. It's also a circular definition in this discussion, because we could learn from "enterprise class software" how to treat "a lot of production downtime and scalability issues", because "enterprise class software" is "performant, scalabile, and robust", by your own words and quotes.
      - Clubber 9y ago
        I'm not sure what you are talking about, but I'm talking about building enterprise class software in-house as opposed to buying generic software off the shelf. This is the software the business uses to run operations. If you organization has resolved to buying it's operations software off the shelf, like Oracle EBS, it's already admitted it can't develop software. I'm getting the feeling we are talking about different things. All of those things you listed are bug tracking / management software. I'm talking operational software that runs the business. It's all custom and fits like a glove if the business is competent.
        dozzie 9y ago
        > If you organization has resolved to buying it's operations software off the shelf, like Oracle EBS, it's already admitted it can't develop software. If "I" organization has resolved to buying "it has" software, it still does not mean that the organization cannot write software. ERP systems or HR systems, for instance, are rarely written in-house, even if the company does nothing but writes software. > I'm getting the feeling we are talking about different things. Obviously. That's why I said: "funny choice of words". > All of those things you listed are bug tracking / management software. Not even half of them, but it doesn't matter here. > I'm talking operational software that runs the business. It's all custom and fits like a glove if the business is competent. And you should have started with providing this as your definition of "enterprise class software". I would never have thought that this is what you meant.