4 ms·

Where did OP say anything about looking to NC as a cultural role model? S/he was making a point that people in SF are intolerant, not that people in NC are tole

Where did OP say anything about looking to NC as a cultural role model? S/he was making a point that people in SF are intolerant, not that people in NC are tolerant.

threatofrain 9y ago
If you say that someone is short, it goes to say that you have a comparison model, and that something is tall. Measuring SF as intolerant naturally invites a comparative measure, and here we are discussing how inviting SF is to North Carolina Christians. I am discussing vice versa by asking mere questions. It might enrich the discussion to say that it's still illegal for men to have sex with men in North Carolina, it's just unenforceable. North Carolina is also working to say that sodomy laws are not unconstitutional. The Christians I know around the Bay Area are under no such threat. If anything, churches are enclaves of extreme quality in the Bay Area. It goes to show what a fertile ground this is for diversity.
- fennecfoxen 9y ago
  > If you say that someone is short, it goes to say that you have a comparison model, and that something is tall. Since you bring it up, I will observe that I found New York to be a lot more tolerant in practice. Statistically, the political leanings are pretty comparable, but somehow people are less strident in practice, even during my tenure at a company with an explicit institutional commitment to social justice causes. Among other things, I suspect it may simply be that a lot of people come to New York from a lot of places for a lot more reasons than they do San Francisco. But at the end of the day, it's not even really that Bay Area culture is stridently anti-Christian per se. It's just strident about everything. San Francisco is the sort of place where people scrawl anti-parenting graffiti on the changing tables in the restrooms at Whole Foods to shame new parents for their crimes against the planet. (My circle of acquaintances in London is still quite small, so I hesitate to generalise, but at least in the tech scene, everything is very international.) > The Christians I know around the Bay Area are under no such threat. If anything, churches are enclaves of extreme quality in the Bay Area. It goes to show what a fertile ground this is for diversity. 1. There's something about describing religion merely in terms of "churches" and "enclaves" as if there's a box around the realm of acceptable religious activity. Telling people that they are permitted to meet in a consecrated building weekly is the start of religious tolerance, vaguely akin to not prosecuting people under sodomy laws. 2. If you don't know someone with a strong negative opinion of AB 569, you're not really in touch with that diversity.
  - threatofrain 9y ago
    1. Telling people are they permitted to meet... is the start of religious tolerance? Was there a thought even slightly in your mind that this was even mildly in tension? Like there will be laws on the books striking people from meeting in a Christian church? Like a political momentum is coming? That churches are allows to operate tax-free, that Churches often operate businesses flagrantly in view of the community but nobody cares (education), and that there isn't any political force close to bringing tension on this matter, shows that churches are not merely tolerated... they are politically privileged. ? Can you think of any other group with this much power? And in the Bay Area, I think that's clearer. Churches are bastions of middle-to-high SES wealth, revenue, sensibilities, and aspirations. They are places where parents can aspire for their children to be lawyers, doctors, or engineers. Black churches in other areas work differently; worse. I wonder if a lot of Bay Area Christians never attend even one black church. I cannot believe it when Christians talk about persecution in California inside their churches. It blows my mind. Will there be a Proposition 8 for Muslims? If you're talking about religious diversity, then I understand. I'm promoting secularism, not religion. Try to think of any group that has this much political privilege, while simultaneously talking about religious oppression, as if they stand for churches as well as mosques. 2. Why are you talking about whether I'm in touch with diversity?
    - fennecfoxen 9y ago
      > Was there a thought even slightly in your mind that this was even mildly in tension? Not in any practical sense, but that's a pretty low bar, isn't it? The point is that even your own comments are loaded with views about how > Churches often operate businesses flagrantly in view of the community but nobody cares (education) Look at the world-view implicit there. This is what I am pointing at. You seem to propose that a church doing things outside "be a place for crazy-people to gather" is something like fundamentally overstepping boundaries. They have a parable for that. "You do not light a lamp, only to place it under a bushel basket." > I cannot believe it when Christians talk about persecution in California inside their churches. Imagine that you are working in California and hold what is an altogether-common Christian view: that "the legal vehicle of marriage should be offered only to man-woman couples with the general idea of founding a family." Now imagine you donate, in secret, to a cause which supports that view (e.g. Proposition 8) — whilst being sensitive of the fact that many people would find this to imply that they are invalid as people, and so you make a point of not breathing a word of it, instead making it a special point in your daily life to treat any person who would be affected by this with respect. Suppose all of your colleagues and all those who interact with you will rush to your defence if you are accused of any impropriety in this regard. There is a credible case that you should live in fear of being found out, being decried a hateful bigot in public forums, and losing your job. It has been amply demonstrated. > Black churches in other areas work differently; worse... Will there be a Proposition 8 for Muslims? The problems faced by black churches or Muslims may be more acutely serious in a variety of cases, and more serious overall as well, but of course this fails to justify any mistreatment of anyone.

Where did OP say anything about looking to NC as a cultural role model? S/he was making a point that people in SF are intolerant, not that people in NC are tolerant.

threatofrain 9y ago

If you say that someone is short, it goes to say that you have a comparison model, and that something is tall. Measuring SF as intolerant naturally invites a comparative measure, and here we are discussing how inviting SF is to North Carolina Christians. I am discussing vice versa by asking mere questions. It might enrich the discussion to say that it's still illegal for men to have sex with men in North Carolina, it's just unenforceable. North Carolina is also working to say that sodomy laws are not unconstitutional. The Christians I know around the Bay Area are under no such threat. If anything, churches are enclaves of extreme quality in the Bay Area. It goes to show what a fertile ground this is for diversity.

fennecfoxen 9y ago
> If you say that someone is short, it goes to say that you have a comparison model, and that something is tall. Since you bring it up, I will observe that I found New York to be a lot more tolerant in practice. Statistically, the political leanings are pretty comparable, but somehow people are less strident in practice, even during my tenure at a company with an explicit institutional commitment to social justice causes. Among other things, I suspect it may simply be that a lot of people come to New York from a lot of places for a lot more reasons than they do San Francisco. But at the end of the day, it's not even really that Bay Area culture is stridently anti-Christian per se. It's just strident about everything. San Francisco is the sort of place where people scrawl anti-parenting graffiti on the changing tables in the restrooms at Whole Foods to shame new parents for their crimes against the planet. (My circle of acquaintances in London is still quite small, so I hesitate to generalise, but at least in the tech scene, everything is very international.) > The Christians I know around the Bay Area are under no such threat. If anything, churches are enclaves of extreme quality in the Bay Area. It goes to show what a fertile ground this is for diversity. 1. There's something about describing religion merely in terms of "churches" and "enclaves" as if there's a box around the realm of acceptable religious activity. Telling people that they are permitted to meet in a consecrated building weekly is the start of religious tolerance, vaguely akin to not prosecuting people under sodomy laws. 2. If you don't know someone with a strong negative opinion of AB 569, you're not really in touch with that diversity.
- threatofrain 9y ago
  1. Telling people are they permitted to meet... is the start of religious tolerance? Was there a thought even slightly in your mind that this was even mildly in tension? Like there will be laws on the books striking people from meeting in a Christian church? Like a political momentum is coming? That churches are allows to operate tax-free, that Churches often operate businesses flagrantly in view of the community but nobody cares (education), and that there isn't any political force close to bringing tension on this matter, shows that churches are not merely tolerated... they are politically privileged. ? Can you think of any other group with this much power? And in the Bay Area, I think that's clearer. Churches are bastions of middle-to-high SES wealth, revenue, sensibilities, and aspirations. They are places where parents can aspire for their children to be lawyers, doctors, or engineers. Black churches in other areas work differently; worse. I wonder if a lot of Bay Area Christians never attend even one black church. I cannot believe it when Christians talk about persecution in California inside their churches. It blows my mind. Will there be a Proposition 8 for Muslims? If you're talking about religious diversity, then I understand. I'm promoting secularism, not religion. Try to think of any group that has this much political privilege, while simultaneously talking about religious oppression, as if they stand for churches as well as mosques. 2. Why are you talking about whether I'm in touch with diversity?
  - fennecfoxen 9y ago
    > Was there a thought even slightly in your mind that this was even mildly in tension? Not in any practical sense, but that's a pretty low bar, isn't it? The point is that even your own comments are loaded with views about how > Churches often operate businesses flagrantly in view of the community but nobody cares (education) Look at the world-view implicit there. This is what I am pointing at. You seem to propose that a church doing things outside "be a place for crazy-people to gather" is something like fundamentally overstepping boundaries. They have a parable for that. "You do not light a lamp, only to place it under a bushel basket." > I cannot believe it when Christians talk about persecution in California inside their churches. Imagine that you are working in California and hold what is an altogether-common Christian view: that "the legal vehicle of marriage should be offered only to man-woman couples with the general idea of founding a family." Now imagine you donate, in secret, to a cause which supports that view (e.g. Proposition 8) — whilst being sensitive of the fact that many people would find this to imply that they are invalid as people, and so you make a point of not breathing a word of it, instead making it a special point in your daily life to treat any person who would be affected by this with respect. Suppose all of your colleagues and all those who interact with you will rush to your defence if you are accused of any impropriety in this regard. There is a credible case that you should live in fear of being found out, being decried a hateful bigot in public forums, and losing your job. It has been amply demonstrated. > Black churches in other areas work differently; worse... Will there be a Proposition 8 for Muslims? The problems faced by black churches or Muslims may be more acutely serious in a variety of cases, and more serious overall as well, but of course this fails to justify any mistreatment of anyone.