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Introducing a single point of failure (1 database, across the internet), organized by a largely complex system (the DoT, possibly) to cope with an edge case doe

by castis 9y ago

Introducing a single point of failure (1 database, across the internet), organized by a largely complex system (the DoT, possibly) to cope with an edge case doesn't feel like a very elegant solution.

pimmen 9y ago
A more costly, less elegant solution whose problem is already shared by street signs in general (meaning we could plan for it) would be RFID tags or something that tells the computer what sign this is if it can't read the sign. You could also use this for training, so it learns to filter away poorly drawn swastikas from the sign. An attack on something like this would scale very poorly, as you would need physical access to all street signs. Issuing RFID to a street sign would be just another step along the manufacturing process of the sign, or as a step to the mounting of the sign. I can't take credit for this idea though, it's already been [explored in a paper](https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-642-41647-7_15 https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-642-41647-7_...).
- tyingq 9y ago
  >An attack on something like this would scale very poorly, as you would need physical access to all street signs I wouldn't underestimate the eventual legions of unemployed truck drivers. They will probably lose eventually, but I expect a spirited effort.
  - pimmen 9y ago
    They would be most successful where population and sign density is high, which would be the cities. During such an attack, public transport could move around people while the authorities would take care of the attackers. The problem for them is that where they would cause the most harm, rural areas (since they are in most dire need of supplies a few towns away and don't have any good alternatives to cars), is where such an attack would be the hardest to implement. Canada, Australia, Iceland and Alaska has many roads where vital street signs can be tens of miles apart from each other, as well any actual people who might be effected by this. Also, demographic movements is working to their disadvantage; more and more people everyday are moving to large cities.
    - tyingq 9y ago
      In the US they can focus on just the interstates. And, they are unemployed, already used to long boring trips, and have established communication networks between them. Oh, and disenfranchised friends at the various rural truck stops and motels that will also be razed by self driving tech.
  - kbos87 9y ago
    This actually doesn't seem that far fetched. Ex-drivers who are angry and have plenty of time on their hands out at night picking the RFID tags out of stop signs. Another scenario is more of a slow and steady war. I'd expect that autonomous vehicles will occasionally be alone and unoccupied, which makes them a tempting and defenseless target. You wouldn't even need to do any physical damage to disable them - just a little electrical tape over their sensors, or some chocks under their tires. Soon, the autonomous trucking cos have to employ some of the ex-truck drivers to go around re-enabling their vehicles. And of course, those ex-truck drivers are in cahoots with the disbalers. That could certainly drive down their savings on labor costs.
dogma1138 9y ago
This isn't a single point of failure by any stretch of the imagination. Waze and other navigation systems have a database of signs, road speeds and traffic enforcement cameras. I don't know about the US but there are places where signs are in a database already. This can be crowd sourced just like anything else. Google Street View already has a pretty good DB to start from.

by castis 9y ago

Introducing a single point of failure (1 database, across the internet), organized by a largely complex system (the DoT, possibly) to cope with an edge case doesn't feel like a very elegant solution.

pimmen 9y ago

A more costly, less elegant solution whose problem is already shared by street signs in general (meaning we could plan for it) would be RFID tags or something that tells the computer what sign this is if it can't read the sign. You could also use this for training, so it learns to filter away poorly drawn swastikas from the sign. An attack on something like this would scale very poorly, as you would need physical access to all street signs. Issuing RFID to a street sign would be just another step along the manufacturing process of the sign, or as a step to the mounting of the sign. I can't take credit for this idea though, it's already been [explored in a paper](https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-642-41647-7_15 https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-642-41647-7_...).

tyingq 9y ago
>An attack on something like this would scale very poorly, as you would need physical access to all street signs I wouldn't underestimate the eventual legions of unemployed truck drivers. They will probably lose eventually, but I expect a spirited effort.
- pimmen 9y ago
  They would be most successful where population and sign density is high, which would be the cities. During such an attack, public transport could move around people while the authorities would take care of the attackers. The problem for them is that where they would cause the most harm, rural areas (since they are in most dire need of supplies a few towns away and don't have any good alternatives to cars), is where such an attack would be the hardest to implement. Canada, Australia, Iceland and Alaska has many roads where vital street signs can be tens of miles apart from each other, as well any actual people who might be effected by this. Also, demographic movements is working to their disadvantage; more and more people everyday are moving to large cities.
  - tyingq 9y ago
    In the US they can focus on just the interstates. And, they are unemployed, already used to long boring trips, and have established communication networks between them. Oh, and disenfranchised friends at the various rural truck stops and motels that will also be razed by self driving tech.
- kbos87 9y ago
  This actually doesn't seem that far fetched. Ex-drivers who are angry and have plenty of time on their hands out at night picking the RFID tags out of stop signs. Another scenario is more of a slow and steady war. I'd expect that autonomous vehicles will occasionally be alone and unoccupied, which makes them a tempting and defenseless target. You wouldn't even need to do any physical damage to disable them - just a little electrical tape over their sensors, or some chocks under their tires. Soon, the autonomous trucking cos have to employ some of the ex-truck drivers to go around re-enabling their vehicles. And of course, those ex-truck drivers are in cahoots with the disbalers. That could certainly drive down their savings on labor costs.

dogma1138 9y ago

This isn't a single point of failure by any stretch of the imagination. Waze and other navigation systems have a database of signs, road speeds and traffic enforcement cameras. I don't know about the US but there are places where signs are in a database already. This can be crowd sourced just like anything else. Google Street View already has a pretty good DB to start from.