4 ms·

Google Employee's Anti-Diversity Manifesto Goes 'Internally Viral'

28 points by ascorbic 9y ago

why_is_it_good 9y ago
> The document said that improving racial and gender diversity is less important than making sure conservatives feel comfortable expressing themselves at work. I'm all for skill over diversity, but "making conservatives comfortable" seems like a weird thing to write. But until the document comes out it will be difficult to judge it, and hearsay and "shaking people" are not a good measure of it's content.
why_is_it_good 9y ago
Found another submission for this story: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14934581 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14934581
- fenomas 9y ago
  Yeah, it was on the front page for a bit but got (I assume) flagged off. Which, for once, I agree with. Sooner or later the document will presumably come out, but until that happens I seriously doubt any useful conversations can be had about a manifesto that nobody's read.
celticninja 9y ago
If this was someone left wing who published a piece saying that women should be paid more then it would hardly cause any commotion. I haven't read the document but it seems that those that disagree with the contents now want to get the author fired. Which seems to have been part of the authors point, it is a safe space for people if they are ideologically left wing bit not if you are from the other end of the political spectrum. I consider myself left wing but echo chambers help no one.
- throwawaypol1 9y ago
  How about people just stop talking about politics at work? If it isn't germane to your job and isn't pleasantries like talking about your weekend or your hobbies or moving or your kids or whatever, just leave it at home. It's just like dating coworkers: sure, it might not be expressly forbidden by office policy, but does that mean it's a good idea?
  - Sir_Substance 9y ago
    >How about people just stop talking about politics at work? If someone else is talking toxic politics at work, and you don't contest them, you get their politics.
  - celticninja 9y ago
    In general I agree, nothing good ever came from discussing religion or politics in a social setting. However there is a tie t the environment in this instance, it is about the quality of work and the remuneration for said work, that does impact on the people involved. If everyone gets paid the same for doing the same job but X produces measurably more work, then there is a disincentive for X to achieve highly if Z gets rewarded inline with the work done by X. In development this may not be as easily measured but, for example, in fruit picking I worked alongside my girlfriend and at the end of day 1 I was asked if I would come back of my girlfriend was not asked to come back. I produced, she didn't and because she could not do as much she actually held back everyone else (not just her, a few mainly females, were not offered another day's work. We were all getting paid a daily rate, so there was a disincentive when someone who could not do as much was getting paid the same. As I say that is in a situation where output can be easily measured and compared, I'm sure there are metrics in development that allow for similar comparisons but can't be certain.
- tehwebguy 9y ago
  Your false equivalency is showing
- s73ver 9y ago
  I think they're saying the author should be fired because they're openly creating a hostile workplace for other groups. And historically, women are underrepresented in tech, and are not in a position of power. Conservative men are. One of the reasons why stuff like this gets such a much more negative response is because it's seen as "punching down."
bitL 9y ago
It should be trivial to measure performance these days and figure out if there indeed is/isn't any biological difference or if certain parts of DNA/cultural background etc. are the decisive factors. It's Google anyway, "The ML company". They should internally test this hypothesis and then publish their findings (hopefully they can do objective studies with high integrity). If diversity programs cause them become less competitive, they will wither at some point; if diversity helps them they will earn economical success (unless all companies become alike). They have a perfect playground internally for that.
- JohnTClark 9y ago
  And what if people don't like the result? If the result will be that there is a biological difference between the sexes will people accept the result or just start calling google a sexist and bigoted company and then google will suffer? There is a Norwegian documentary about biological differences but that didn't change anything.
  - bitL 9y ago
    Let's wait until some research is done. It's premature to say what the real result would be even if we can argue whether pure primitive biology-based behaviorism/evolutionary psychology will be more important than more gentle approaches the civilization is built upon. Maybe we will even gain an insight where the breaking points are.
- enqk 9y ago
  What makes you say that it should be trivial to measure performance?
  - bitL 9y ago
    You have so many metrics these days as well as a complete view of the bottom-line. Google's ML is amongst the best, they have possibilities most people don't even get a hint of.
- s73ver 9y ago

28 points by ascorbic 9y ago

> The document said that improving racial and gender diversity is less important than making sure conservatives feel comfortable expressing themselves at work. I'm all for skill over diversity, but "making conservatives comfortable" seems like a weird thing to write. But until the document comes out it will be difficult to judge it, and hearsay and "shaking people" are not a good measure of it's content.

why_is_it_good 9y ago

Found another submission for this story: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14934581 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14934581

fenomas 9y ago
Yeah, it was on the front page for a bit but got (I assume) flagged off. Which, for once, I agree with. Sooner or later the document will presumably come out, but until that happens I seriously doubt any useful conversations can be had about a manifesto that nobody's read.

celticninja 9y ago

If this was someone left wing who published a piece saying that women should be paid more then it would hardly cause any commotion. I haven't read the document but it seems that those that disagree with the contents now want to get the author fired. Which seems to have been part of the authors point, it is a safe space for people if they are ideologically left wing bit not if you are from the other end of the political spectrum. I consider myself left wing but echo chambers help no one.

throwawaypol1 9y ago
How about people just stop talking about politics at work? If it isn't germane to your job and isn't pleasantries like talking about your weekend or your hobbies or moving or your kids or whatever, just leave it at home. It's just like dating coworkers: sure, it might not be expressly forbidden by office policy, but does that mean it's a good idea?
- Sir_Substance 9y ago
  >How about people just stop talking about politics at work? If someone else is talking toxic politics at work, and you don't contest them, you get their politics.
- celticninja 9y ago
  In general I agree, nothing good ever came from discussing religion or politics in a social setting. However there is a tie t the environment in this instance, it is about the quality of work and the remuneration for said work, that does impact on the people involved. If everyone gets paid the same for doing the same job but X produces measurably more work, then there is a disincentive for X to achieve highly if Z gets rewarded inline with the work done by X. In development this may not be as easily measured but, for example, in fruit picking I worked alongside my girlfriend and at the end of day 1 I was asked if I would come back of my girlfriend was not asked to come back. I produced, she didn't and because she could not do as much she actually held back everyone else (not just her, a few mainly females, were not offered another day's work. We were all getting paid a daily rate, so there was a disincentive when someone who could not do as much was getting paid the same. As I say that is in a situation where output can be easily measured and compared, I'm sure there are metrics in development that allow for similar comparisons but can't be certain.
tehwebguy 9y ago
Your false equivalency is showing
s73ver 9y ago
I think they're saying the author should be fired because they're openly creating a hostile workplace for other groups. And historically, women are underrepresented in tech, and are not in a position of power. Conservative men are. One of the reasons why stuff like this gets such a much more negative response is because it's seen as "punching down."

bitL 9y ago

It should be trivial to measure performance these days and figure out if there indeed is/isn't any biological difference or if certain parts of DNA/cultural background etc. are the decisive factors. It's Google anyway, "The ML company". They should internally test this hypothesis and then publish their findings (hopefully they can do objective studies with high integrity). If diversity programs cause them become less competitive, they will wither at some point; if diversity helps them they will earn economical success (unless all companies become alike). They have a perfect playground internally for that.

JohnTClark 9y ago
And what if people don't like the result? If the result will be that there is a biological difference between the sexes will people accept the result or just start calling google a sexist and bigoted company and then google will suffer? There is a Norwegian documentary about biological differences but that didn't change anything.
- bitL 9y ago
  Let's wait until some research is done. It's premature to say what the real result would be even if we can argue whether pure primitive biology-based behaviorism/evolutionary psychology will be more important than more gentle approaches the civilization is built upon. Maybe we will even gain an insight where the breaking points are.
enqk 9y ago
What makes you say that it should be trivial to measure performance?
- bitL 9y ago
  You have so many metrics these days as well as a complete view of the bottom-line. Google's ML is amongst the best, they have possibilities most people don't even get a hint of.
s73ver 9y ago