6 ms·

> without strong fundamentals I've used Bitcoin to buy medication from India. When ppl say shit like this, I get confused. Literally sit there & use it whilst

> without strong fundamentals I've used Bitcoin to buy medication from India. When ppl say shit like this, I get confused. Literally sit there & use it whilst ppl say it can't work. Really odd. It works. I've used it. It works. I'm not sure exactly what it takes to get through. A functioning system doesn't seem to suffice.

omarchowdhury 9y ago
Buying medication from India was already possible with credit cards before Bitcoin. Next argument, please?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- mateuszf 9y ago
  Are you suggesting credit cards also don't have value?
  - Fnoord 9y ago
    Well, to whom? Legally, only the owner, and they're using it to create debt.
- zeroxfe 9y ago
  I think you just strengthened GPs argument.
GTP 9y ago
The fact that you can use it to buy real things doesn't means that is has a strong fundamental. To contradict the statement that BTC doesn't have a strong fundamental you should tell which this fundamental is and why it is strong. NOTE: don't take me wrong, I don't have a clear opinion about this topic. I think there's a concrete possibility that BTC will crash when it reaches the limit of 21 million BTC but I'm not sure it will happen, I think we have to wait until that moment to see what happens.
- discombobulate 9y ago
  What does 'a strong fundamental' mean? A global payment system which is faster than a wire transfer. An uncorrelated hedge for assets. P2P payment. Things like that?
  - trevyn 9y ago
    A different (more modern?) cryptocurrency could serve all of those needs, which is a threat to the fundamental value of Bitcoin. For comparison, the "fundamental" value of USD is a trust in the US Government to maintain its value. Comparing that to the fundamental value of Bitcoin would be a fun discussion to have, but the fact remains that the US has done it for 225 years and Bitcoin has done it for less than 9 years. Actually, by that reasoning, I guess the fundamental value of Bitcoin is the distributed self-interest and capability of Bitcoin holders to maintain Bitcoin's value, which is obviously a powerful force.
    - discombobulate 9y ago
      Like I said, I stay on the ball. I'm not going to lay out my investment thesis here.
      - trevyn 9y ago
        But the point is that a "strong fundamental" means that there is a widespread long-term belief in whatever backs the currency. Bitcoin is too new to have this in human timescales. Can you make money speculating in Bitcoin? Obviously. But it is not fundamentally backed by something that people have long-term trust in -- it is only worth what you can trade it for at that moment.
        discombobulate 9y ago
        I trust cryptography & networks. I've lived a large part of my life on networks. Never talked to a politician.
    - 9y ago
trevyn 9y ago
The concept of Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies has a strong fundamental value to people. The value of a Bitcoin itself is only indirectly linked to this -- it is very possible that another cryptocurrency will prove more useful (cf. ETH), and people will switch to using that other currency for their cryptocurrency needs. Yes, Bitcoin is great and enables new things. Bitcoin "investment" / speculation is another thing entirely.
- discombobulate 9y ago
  Correct. Which is why I stay on the ball.
grey-area 9y ago
I said nothing about whether it works. A functioning system with the shortcomings and usage patterns of bitcoin does not warrant the large rise in price over the last 12 months IMO.
wpietri 9y ago
"Works" isn't sufficient for broad adoption. It has to create value by solving a widespread problem much better than alternatives. See this classic tech marketing book for more: https://www.amazon.com/Crossing-Chasm-Marketing-High-Tech-Mainstream/dp/0060517123 https://www.amazon.com/Crossing-Chasm-Marketing-High-Tech-Ma... I've been asking for positive examples for years, and I still see no signs that Bitcoin is poised for more than niche adoption. Sure, if you want to do something modestly illegal, like buying gray market prescription drugs, Bitcoin may fill a niche. But it hasn't caught on for legal transactions, and its traceability makes it bad for seriously illegal activities. And even if you're only doing something modestly illegal, you have to be pretty technical and pretty dedicated to make it work. For most people it's way easier to give cash to their friendly local drug dealer. So yes, it doesn't have strong fundamentals. The underlying commodity, long integers, is freely available. Despite years of "Bitcoin will be widespread soon" puffery, the use value is very weak compared with alternatives. At least you could plant tulip bulbs.
- discombobulate 9y ago
  It's legal to import prescription drugs to the UK. P2P payment is a big one. I think kids may use it, since they can't get PayPal et al(?). Thought of that yesterday. That's a generation growing up with crypto. Investing in startups around the world is new (via token sales). Investing in uncorrelated assets is valuable. Eat gold. Browser micropayments could get big (Brave browser). Ppl may even get paid for attention in the future. Iota for the internet of thing (haven't looked into that much). Hedge against fiat inflation. Internet ported to decentralised infra if Trump etc start pulling 1984 bs. Self-driving cars paying toll road via crypto (just made that up). Solar panels off-setting their cost via crypto-mining. Then ppl have crypto to spend. Decentralised file systems. Decentralised storage. That's a few whilst I whale on my legs.
  - lambdadmitry 9y ago
    I strongly suspect that your argument is dishonest. Most probably you just bought some modafinil from a couple of sellers who give big discounts when you pay them in BTC (because they are aware of the grey zone they are in). It's not really an argument for general BTC utility.

omarchowdhury 9y ago

Buying medication from India was already possible with credit cards before Bitcoin. Next argument, please?

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
mateuszf 9y ago
Are you suggesting credit cards also don't have value?
- Fnoord 9y ago
  Well, to whom? Legally, only the owner, and they're using it to create debt.
zeroxfe 9y ago
I think you just strengthened GPs argument.

GTP 9y ago

The fact that you can use it to buy real things doesn't means that is has a strong fundamental. To contradict the statement that BTC doesn't have a strong fundamental you should tell which this fundamental is and why it is strong. NOTE: don't take me wrong, I don't have a clear opinion about this topic. I think there's a concrete possibility that BTC will crash when it reaches the limit of 21 million BTC but I'm not sure it will happen, I think we have to wait until that moment to see what happens.

discombobulate 9y ago
What does 'a strong fundamental' mean? A global payment system which is faster than a wire transfer. An uncorrelated hedge for assets. P2P payment. Things like that?
- trevyn 9y ago
  A different (more modern?) cryptocurrency could serve all of those needs, which is a threat to the fundamental value of Bitcoin. For comparison, the "fundamental" value of USD is a trust in the US Government to maintain its value. Comparing that to the fundamental value of Bitcoin would be a fun discussion to have, but the fact remains that the US has done it for 225 years and Bitcoin has done it for less than 9 years. Actually, by that reasoning, I guess the fundamental value of Bitcoin is the distributed self-interest and capability of Bitcoin holders to maintain Bitcoin's value, which is obviously a powerful force.
  - discombobulate 9y ago
    Like I said, I stay on the ball. I'm not going to lay out my investment thesis here.
    - trevyn 9y ago
      But the point is that a "strong fundamental" means that there is a widespread long-term belief in whatever backs the currency. Bitcoin is too new to have this in human timescales. Can you make money speculating in Bitcoin? Obviously. But it is not fundamentally backed by something that people have long-term trust in -- it is only worth what you can trade it for at that moment.
      - discombobulate 9y ago
        I trust cryptography & networks. I've lived a large part of my life on networks. Never talked to a politician.
  - 9y ago

trevyn 9y ago

The concept of Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies has a strong fundamental value to people. The value of a Bitcoin itself is only indirectly linked to this -- it is very possible that another cryptocurrency will prove more useful (cf. ETH), and people will switch to using that other currency for their cryptocurrency needs. Yes, Bitcoin is great and enables new things. Bitcoin "investment" / speculation is another thing entirely.

discombobulate 9y ago
Correct. Which is why I stay on the ball.

grey-area 9y ago

I said nothing about whether it works. A functioning system with the shortcomings and usage patterns of bitcoin does not warrant the large rise in price over the last 12 months IMO.

wpietri 9y ago

"Works" isn't sufficient for broad adoption. It has to create value by solving a widespread problem much better than alternatives. See this classic tech marketing book for more: https://www.amazon.com/Crossing-Chasm-Marketing-High-Tech-Mainstream/dp/0060517123 https://www.amazon.com/Crossing-Chasm-Marketing-High-Tech-Ma... I've been asking for positive examples for years, and I still see no signs that Bitcoin is poised for more than niche adoption. Sure, if you want to do something modestly illegal, like buying gray market prescription drugs, Bitcoin may fill a niche. But it hasn't caught on for legal transactions, and its traceability makes it bad for seriously illegal activities. And even if you're only doing something modestly illegal, you have to be pretty technical and pretty dedicated to make it work. For most people it's way easier to give cash to their friendly local drug dealer. So yes, it doesn't have strong fundamentals. The underlying commodity, long integers, is freely available. Despite years of "Bitcoin will be widespread soon" puffery, the use value is very weak compared with alternatives. At least you could plant tulip bulbs.

discombobulate 9y ago
It's legal to import prescription drugs to the UK. P2P payment is a big one. I think kids may use it, since they can't get PayPal et al(?). Thought of that yesterday. That's a generation growing up with crypto. Investing in startups around the world is new (via token sales). Investing in uncorrelated assets is valuable. Eat gold. Browser micropayments could get big (Brave browser). Ppl may even get paid for attention in the future. Iota for the internet of thing (haven't looked into that much). Hedge against fiat inflation. Internet ported to decentralised infra if Trump etc start pulling 1984 bs. Self-driving cars paying toll road via crypto (just made that up). Solar panels off-setting their cost via crypto-mining. Then ppl have crypto to spend. Decentralised file systems. Decentralised storage. That's a few whilst I whale on my legs.
- lambdadmitry 9y ago
  I strongly suspect that your argument is dishonest. Most probably you just bought some modafinil from a couple of sellers who give big discounts when you pay them in BTC (because they are aware of the grey zone they are in). It's not really an argument for general BTC utility.