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Yes, but there are also large players clearly manipulating the markets on the various exchanges, unhindered by regulations. It is definitely more than just rand

Yes, but there are also large players clearly manipulating the markets on the various exchanges, unhindered by regulations. It is definitely more than just random movement.

dmichulke 9y ago
Imo they can only sell and buy, is that manipulation?
- icelancer 9y ago
  Also publish blog articles and tweets and such about it. That is manipulation. There's also option-style trading on some platforms, plenty of people have been short BTC and gotten squeezed recently, however.
- fapjacks 9y ago
  If these people did the same things (quote stuffing and layering in general, spoofing, etc) on the regular stock exchange, the SEC would have them arrested. It is illegal to do the things on the regular stock exchange that some of these people are doing on the cryptocurrency exchanges. As someone that's been involved in Ethereum and Bitcoin (bot) trading on various exchanges for at least a couple of years now, I am tracking several groups or individuals ("players") that do this kind of thing all day, every day. I personally don't have a problem with it, but don't think for a second that this would be legal on the regular stock exchange.
  - lloyd-christmas 9y ago
    > the SEC would have them arrested No they wouldn't. I worked as an equities trader for years. Saying something is illegal is meaningless if people do it anyway and the enforcement body has little to no power to stop it. Spoofing is rampant in the equities market regardless of its legality. Watching GDAX for the last week, there is definitively less spoofing in the ETH/USD market than in the equities markets as a whole.
    - fapjacks 9y ago
      You mean like this? http://www.marketwatch.com/story/two-traders-arrested-over-alleged-manipulation-of-more-than-2000-stocks-2016-12-12 http://www.marketwatch.com/story/two-traders-arrested-over-a...
      - lloyd-christmas 9y ago
        We could list the one case prosecuted each year if you'd like, but that won't make it any more significant. I was at a small firm with 50 traders. I guarantee there were a handful that were spoofing. The NYSE alone is worth $25 trillion. Bitcoin altogether is worth $55b. One or two arrests every year isn't "regulation", nor is it even a minor deterent. The SEC is far and away one of the weakest regulatory bodies in the US.
        fapjacks 9y ago
        I provided an example showing that your assertion is wrong. They do have the enforcement power to arrest people for the things I mention.
        lloyd-christmas 9y ago
        You gave an example, I gave you 10% of my trading floor. You can say what you want about rules and regulations, but if people don't PRACTICALLY enforce them, the rules are irrelevant. The SEC just needs a poster child every now and then. I'm sure you looked and saw how many arrests there have actually been. I'm curious, how many people doing it would make you believe that arrest is statistically insignificant? Regardless of an example, there are also large players clearly manipulating the markets on the various exchanges, unhindered by regulations applies to both.

Yes, but there are also large players clearly manipulating the markets on the various exchanges, unhindered by regulations. It is definitely more than just random movement.

dmichulke 9y ago

Imo they can only sell and buy, is that manipulation?

icelancer 9y ago
Also publish blog articles and tweets and such about it. That is manipulation. There's also option-style trading on some platforms, plenty of people have been short BTC and gotten squeezed recently, however.
fapjacks 9y ago
If these people did the same things (quote stuffing and layering in general, spoofing, etc) on the regular stock exchange, the SEC would have them arrested. It is illegal to do the things on the regular stock exchange that some of these people are doing on the cryptocurrency exchanges. As someone that's been involved in Ethereum and Bitcoin (bot) trading on various exchanges for at least a couple of years now, I am tracking several groups or individuals ("players") that do this kind of thing all day, every day. I personally don't have a problem with it, but don't think for a second that this would be legal on the regular stock exchange.
- lloyd-christmas 9y ago
  > the SEC would have them arrested No they wouldn't. I worked as an equities trader for years. Saying something is illegal is meaningless if people do it anyway and the enforcement body has little to no power to stop it. Spoofing is rampant in the equities market regardless of its legality. Watching GDAX for the last week, there is definitively less spoofing in the ETH/USD market than in the equities markets as a whole.
  - fapjacks 9y ago
    You mean like this? http://www.marketwatch.com/story/two-traders-arrested-over-alleged-manipulation-of-more-than-2000-stocks-2016-12-12 http://www.marketwatch.com/story/two-traders-arrested-over-a...
    - lloyd-christmas 9y ago
      We could list the one case prosecuted each year if you'd like, but that won't make it any more significant. I was at a small firm with 50 traders. I guarantee there were a handful that were spoofing. The NYSE alone is worth $25 trillion. Bitcoin altogether is worth $55b. One or two arrests every year isn't "regulation", nor is it even a minor deterent. The SEC is far and away one of the weakest regulatory bodies in the US.
      - fapjacks 9y ago
        I provided an example showing that your assertion is wrong. They do have the enforcement power to arrest people for the things I mention.
        lloyd-christmas 9y ago
        You gave an example, I gave you 10% of my trading floor. You can say what you want about rules and regulations, but if people don't PRACTICALLY enforce them, the rules are irrelevant. The SEC just needs a poster child every now and then. I'm sure you looked and saw how many arrests there have actually been. I'm curious, how many people doing it would make you believe that arrest is statistically insignificant? Regardless of an example, there are also large players clearly manipulating the markets on the various exchanges, unhindered by regulations applies to both.