5 ms·

Ageism is forcing many to look outside Silicon Valley

36 points by jwassil 9y ago

Powerofmene 9y ago
We hear it over and over again and I understand the reluctance to address it (it can be scary to step out from the crowd) but when is an organization with clout, such as YC, going to take a stand on this issue? Until an organization has the desire and courage to step out from the crowd and fund ideas/startups, without regard to age but, on the strength of the idea and the team, then this issue will forever be in the news. This would also be an opportunity to expand the pool of startups to fund and to analyze growth, ROI, etc. compared to the standard business practice of funding startups with young founders. How can we say we care about people and on finding solutions for the problems facing people today when we shut the door on a large segment of society simply because they are over 40? i wonder how Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, Peter Thiel, Sergey Brian, or Eric Schmidt feel about this topic if there was mandatory retirement at the age of 40 in tech. Would they think they still had something to offer? If the answer is they would, why is everyone ignoring this issue?
- danjoc 9y ago
  >when is an organization with clout, such as YC, going to take a stand on this issue? This is not the sort of diversity they're interested in.
  - Powerofmene 9y ago
    You have been on HN far longer than I and given the definitiveness of your statement, I will take your word for it that YC is not interested in working with founders over 40.
- aphextron 9y ago
  >But when is an organization with clout, such as YC, going to take a stand on this issue? Given the current state of things, you could say they already have. The market has decided that younger engineers are more in demand because they are more willing to accept lower wages and longer working hours. If you can get 90% of the talent for 50% of the cost, it's just business. This holds true across many industries.
  - toomuchtodo 9y ago
    I suppose we'll just need more government regulation (mandatory reporting of candidate interviews, hiring criteria, hiring decision justifications, etc).
    - Alacart 9y ago
      The problem, I think, is that they are hiring younger for what are economic decisions, rather than decisions based around protected status. That is, they're more likely hiring young because they can get a better deal out of it (they assume), not because of age in and of itself. I don't want to see older tech workers out of work, but I also don't think it's a group that deserves anything more than any other group.
      - Powerofmene 9y ago
        Please understand what I am saying, I do not think older workers want nor deserve special treatment. They simply want a chance to be considered. If an older applicant is willing to work the hours and for the offered pay, it appears they are not even being considered along with the younger applicants. At least that has been my takeaway from the many news reports on this issue. To make a job offer based on a protected status (in short to hire a mature applicant simply because of their age) is as discriminatory as it is to exclude someone because they are an older applicant.
    - Powerofmene 9y ago
      I spent too many years working for the government and I can assure you that is exactly what we do not need. Anyway, we already have that if someone wants to make a discrimination claim and they are called the EEOC. I choose to think intelligent, creative individuals can find a solution to an issue such as this rather than beat each other up. Maybe I just need to take off my rose colored glasses.
    - ahallock 9y ago
      I can't tell if you're being serious, but will the costs to the taxpayer and possible unintended consequences and invariable corruption be worth it to add more layers of government to our slowly eroding free interactions? Since there are plenty of job markets outside of Silicon Valley, maybe it's good people are looking elsewhere. These markets could use the boost.
- davidreiss 9y ago
  > If the answer is they would, why is everyone ignoring this issue? Nobody is ignoring it. It's just if you haven't moved up the tech/management/etc ladder by your late 30s/40s, there just isn't a place for you in silicon valley/tech startup scene. I started at a startup when I was 20. All the devs were in their 20s. Our founder was 29. During milestone/release/go-live times, we'd work 20 hours a day and sleep at our desks and wash in the 1 toilet bathroom the entire week or two prior to get our job ( deliverable ) done. Now that I'm older, that's something I just physically can't do. I just don't have the energy or stamina for it. Also, family responsibilities means I can't do it. The startup scene is such a raw, all-or-nothing, winner-take-all scene that it'll always be a young man's game. Also, younger people are viewed as more innovative, more immersed in new tech and quicker to learn. As much as experienced is touted, it's not worth much in the startup scene. Certainly it helps if you are the founder/team lead, but for the regular devs, it just makes sense to bring in the cheaper, hungrier, "quicker", eager college grads or young devs. Put yourself in their position. Imagine you just founded a startup. Would you really be willing to hire overpaid 40 year olds who have to be home by 5 or 6 PM? Also, would you as a 40 year old be comfortable in a dev team with a bunch of 20 year olds? This is why as devs grow older, they transition to more established corporations. It's why VCs love to fund younger founders. That's where the innovation/energy/risk-appetite is. 40 year olds have kids college funds to think of, their retirement funds, healthcare, etc to worry about. And as you grow older you get more conservative and set in your ways. Also, as younger people/devs continue to create winners like google, facebook, snapchat, youtube, reddit, microsoft, etc, that's where the money will go. Silicon Vally and the VC community isn't about charity or societal good, it's about making money.
  - KirinDave 9y ago
    > This is why as devs grow older, they transition to more established corporations. It's why VCs love to fund younger founders. VCs love younger founders because their easier to manipulate and control. Becuase they'll cheerfully risk everything and give most the gains away to the VCs. It is not an attitude we should be encouraging or suggesting is a status quo allowed to exist. In part because it's unethical, but also in part because it encourages the proliferation of many small, disposable companies that only benefit investors by trying to implement the smallest delta in tech increase possible in the industry.
pascalxus 9y ago
Just another symptom of the oversupply of Talent in this industry.
- 0xbear 9y ago
  Nail on the head. Cut H1b admission in half and older software engineers will be in demand again.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
crunkykd 9y ago
Depending on the industry, there is a tendency to hire founders of a certain age group. Certain industries like mfg and international trade favor older founders who have acquired knowledge and widespread contacts over decades. Other industries that need the latest college-produced science & tech favor the newest grads from 1st tier universities. It's all about risk reduction and outsized returns. Where energy and time count most, send in the youth. Where widespread personal networks and deep domain knowledge count most, send in the grey hairs.

36 points by jwassil 9y ago

We hear it over and over again and I understand the reluctance to address it (it can be scary to step out from the crowd) but when is an organization with clout, such as YC, going to take a stand on this issue? Until an organization has the desire and courage to step out from the crowd and fund ideas/startups, without regard to age but, on the strength of the idea and the team, then this issue will forever be in the news. This would also be an opportunity to expand the pool of startups to fund and to analyze growth, ROI, etc. compared to the standard business practice of funding startups with young founders. How can we say we care about people and on finding solutions for the problems facing people today when we shut the door on a large segment of society simply because they are over 40? i wonder how Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, Peter Thiel, Sergey Brian, or Eric Schmidt feel about this topic if there was mandatory retirement at the age of 40 in tech. Would they think they still had something to offer? If the answer is they would, why is everyone ignoring this issue?

danjoc 9y ago
>when is an organization with clout, such as YC, going to take a stand on this issue? This is not the sort of diversity they're interested in.
- Powerofmene 9y ago
  You have been on HN far longer than I and given the definitiveness of your statement, I will take your word for it that YC is not interested in working with founders over 40.
aphextron 9y ago
>But when is an organization with clout, such as YC, going to take a stand on this issue? Given the current state of things, you could say they already have. The market has decided that younger engineers are more in demand because they are more willing to accept lower wages and longer working hours. If you can get 90% of the talent for 50% of the cost, it's just business. This holds true across many industries.
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  I suppose we'll just need more government regulation (mandatory reporting of candidate interviews, hiring criteria, hiring decision justifications, etc).
  - Alacart 9y ago
    The problem, I think, is that they are hiring younger for what are economic decisions, rather than decisions based around protected status. That is, they're more likely hiring young because they can get a better deal out of it (they assume), not because of age in and of itself. I don't want to see older tech workers out of work, but I also don't think it's a group that deserves anything more than any other group.
    - Powerofmene 9y ago
      Please understand what I am saying, I do not think older workers want nor deserve special treatment. They simply want a chance to be considered. If an older applicant is willing to work the hours and for the offered pay, it appears they are not even being considered along with the younger applicants. At least that has been my takeaway from the many news reports on this issue. To make a job offer based on a protected status (in short to hire a mature applicant simply because of their age) is as discriminatory as it is to exclude someone because they are an older applicant.
  - Powerofmene 9y ago
    I spent too many years working for the government and I can assure you that is exactly what we do not need. Anyway, we already have that if someone wants to make a discrimination claim and they are called the EEOC. I choose to think intelligent, creative individuals can find a solution to an issue such as this rather than beat each other up. Maybe I just need to take off my rose colored glasses.
  - ahallock 9y ago
    I can't tell if you're being serious, but will the costs to the taxpayer and possible unintended consequences and invariable corruption be worth it to add more layers of government to our slowly eroding free interactions? Since there are plenty of job markets outside of Silicon Valley, maybe it's good people are looking elsewhere. These markets could use the boost.
davidreiss 9y ago
> If the answer is they would, why is everyone ignoring this issue? Nobody is ignoring it. It's just if you haven't moved up the tech/management/etc ladder by your late 30s/40s, there just isn't a place for you in silicon valley/tech startup scene. I started at a startup when I was 20. All the devs were in their 20s. Our founder was 29. During milestone/release/go-live times, we'd work 20 hours a day and sleep at our desks and wash in the 1 toilet bathroom the entire week or two prior to get our job ( deliverable ) done. Now that I'm older, that's something I just physically can't do. I just don't have the energy or stamina for it. Also, family responsibilities means I can't do it. The startup scene is such a raw, all-or-nothing, winner-take-all scene that it'll always be a young man's game. Also, younger people are viewed as more innovative, more immersed in new tech and quicker to learn. As much as experienced is touted, it's not worth much in the startup scene. Certainly it helps if you are the founder/team lead, but for the regular devs, it just makes sense to bring in the cheaper, hungrier, "quicker", eager college grads or young devs. Put yourself in their position. Imagine you just founded a startup. Would you really be willing to hire overpaid 40 year olds who have to be home by 5 or 6 PM? Also, would you as a 40 year old be comfortable in a dev team with a bunch of 20 year olds? This is why as devs grow older, they transition to more established corporations. It's why VCs love to fund younger founders. That's where the innovation/energy/risk-appetite is. 40 year olds have kids college funds to think of, their retirement funds, healthcare, etc to worry about. And as you grow older you get more conservative and set in your ways. Also, as younger people/devs continue to create winners like google, facebook, snapchat, youtube, reddit, microsoft, etc, that's where the money will go. Silicon Vally and the VC community isn't about charity or societal good, it's about making money.
- KirinDave 9y ago
  > This is why as devs grow older, they transition to more established corporations. It's why VCs love to fund younger founders. VCs love younger founders because their easier to manipulate and control. Becuase they'll cheerfully risk everything and give most the gains away to the VCs. It is not an attitude we should be encouraging or suggesting is a status quo allowed to exist. In part because it's unethical, but also in part because it encourages the proliferation of many small, disposable companies that only benefit investors by trying to implement the smallest delta in tech increase possible in the industry.

pascalxus 9y ago

Just another symptom of the oversupply of Talent in this industry.

0xbear 9y ago
Nail on the head. Cut H1b admission in half and older software engineers will be in demand again.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

crunkykd 9y ago

Depending on the industry, there is a tendency to hire founders of a certain age group. Certain industries like mfg and international trade favor older founders who have acquired knowledge and widespread contacts over decades. Other industries that need the latest college-produced science & tech favor the newest grads from 1st tier universities. It's all about risk reduction and outsized returns. Where energy and time count most, send in the youth. Where widespread personal networks and deep domain knowledge count most, send in the grey hairs.