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> They're used so consumers don't take apart their iPhones. I thought that was pretty obvious. What is this in response to? That's exactly what we're talking a

> They're used so consumers don't take apart their iPhones. I thought that was pretty obvious. What is this in response to? That's exactly what we're talking about - the use of proprietary screws to try and prevent users from opening up their devices. Nobody is debating what the choice of screwhead is for. >Using custom screws is a fairly minor roadblock all things considered. It won't stop anyone who knows what they're doing, but it will prevent the average customer from trying to muck with their device and breaking it. And yet you also state that the screw is not a real barrier. If someone is determined enough to replace their battery that they're willing to open up their phone to do it, what about the act of buying a special screwdriver online to do it is suddenly too much? It seems to me that the screws don't really help to protect against customers at all. > Apple devices are not designed with end-user repair in mind Which is the original point of contention - by designing devices which are not intended to be repaired at home, Apple takes away from the rights of its customers, with the added benefit of lining its own pockets with repair fees and replacements. The excuse of "making your device harder to repair" shouldn't be "we don't want you to repair it", if you're trying to defend on principle the idea that Apple isn't deliberately trying to hamper home repair. If they are, then there's no point continuing the original discussion - Apple's difficulty of repair doesn't come from its great design, but because they are made to be unrepairable, and Apple is guilty of all the shameful practises they're being accused of in the first place.

eridius 9y ago
> What is this in response to? It's a response to you saying "… and yet don't at all give a good reason for why they're used in the first place?". > It seems to me that the screws don't really help to protect against customers at all. I really don't get what you're trying to argue here. Yes, people can get around it. That doesn't mean it does nothing. It's a deterrent. > Which is the original point of contention - by designing devices which are not intended to be repaired at home, Apple takes away from the rights of its customers, with the added benefit of lining its own pockets with repair fees and replacements. Are you kidding? Or do you really believe that Apple is making money off repairs? Repairing devices is not a profit center for Apple. I'm sure they try to also make it not a cost center, but Apple is not maliciously forcing people to get repairs through them out of a desire for money. To Apple, the ideal device is one that never needs repairs. Hell, Apple is literally famous for giving out free out-of-warrantee repairs to people. How does that match up with your claim that they're trying to line their pockets? > if you're trying to defend on principle the idea that Apple isn't deliberately trying to hamper home repair. What? No, of course Apple is deliberately trying to hamper home repair. I don't see how you could have read my comments and got the idea that Apple wasn't trying to do that. In fact, my central point about the screws is Apple's trying to deter people from repairing devices at home. They're not making it impossible (in fact, they're not even making it particularly hard), but they are definitely trying to encourage people not to attempt home repair. > If they are, then there's no point continuing the original discussion - Apple's difficulty of repair doesn't come from its great design, but because they are made to be unrepairable, and Apple is guilty of all the shameful practises they're being accused of in the first place. This is complete bullshit. Apple does not design their devices to be unrepairable. They just don't design them to be repairable. Unfortunately, designing devices to be small, not waste any space whatsoever, and get the best battery life and performance possible, also has a tendency to make the device hard to repair, because components are placed in such a way as to maximize the aforementioned goals rather than to be accessible for repair. This also leads to things like soldering components so you can avoid mounting brackets (and this probably also makes repair less likely, because the soldered component won't come unseated), which is a far bigger issue for repairability than the damn screws you're obsessed with.
- ivanbakel 9y ago
  > It's a deterrent. A deterrent how? Scenario: you want to repair your Apple device. You go online to order a new component, conveniently at the same time you get a cheap screwhead to open the device, and everything goes on as expected. If you don't know any better not to open this incredibly fragile device, nowhere along the way have you had a learning experience. >Repairing devices is not a profit center for Apple. >To Apple, the ideal device is one that never needs repairs. These are strong assertions about how Apple operates on the inside. But on the outside, an iPhone screen repair out of warranty can still run in the region of $150, and screen repairs are on the cheap side of services Apple provides. I sincerely doubt that Apple doesn't generate a profit with prices like that. https://support.apple.com/iphone/repair/screen-damage https://support.apple.com/iphone/repair/screen-damage >Apple does not design their devices to be unrepairable. They just don't design them to be repairable. These statements are, to me, identical. Repair factors into the design of devices - Apple engineers didn't suddenly forget about it while making an iPhone. If the device isn't meant to be repairable, you're instead intended to replace it, which is wasteful and also a boost to Apple's profits.
  - eridius 9y ago
    > A deterrent how? I don't get it. You're arguing both that using custom screws is some horrendous thing that Apple's doing to screw over customers, and that it's not even a deterrent at all because you can buy screwdrivers for it. You can't have it both ways. > I sincerely doubt that Apple doesn't generate a profit with prices like that. Why do you doubt that? Do you have any information about what the BOM is for the repair (and don't forget, replacing the screen also means replacing the Touch ID sensor too). Do you have any information about how long it takes for an Apple repair technician to actually perform the repair, and how much they get paid? Do you actually have any information at all as to what it costs Apple to perform repairs? Because it doesn't sound like you do. That said, it's certainly possible that an individual out-of-warranty repair might cost more than strictly necessary, but if so this would presumably be to offset the cost of in-warranty repairs. I really have no idea if any individual Apple repair costs more than strictly necessary, but repairs as a whole are not something Apple does for a profit. > These statements are, to me, identical. Then you have an awfully rigid black & white view of the world, and there's not much more to discuss here.

eridius 9y ago

> What is this in response to? It's a response to you saying "… and yet don't at all give a good reason for why they're used in the first place?". > It seems to me that the screws don't really help to protect against customers at all. I really don't get what you're trying to argue here. Yes, people can get around it. That doesn't mean it does nothing. It's a deterrent. > Which is the original point of contention - by designing devices which are not intended to be repaired at home, Apple takes away from the rights of its customers, with the added benefit of lining its own pockets with repair fees and replacements. Are you kidding? Or do you really believe that Apple is making money off repairs? Repairing devices is not a profit center for Apple. I'm sure they try to also make it not a cost center, but Apple is not maliciously forcing people to get repairs through them out of a desire for money. To Apple, the ideal device is one that never needs repairs. Hell, Apple is literally famous for giving out free out-of-warrantee repairs to people. How does that match up with your claim that they're trying to line their pockets? > if you're trying to defend on principle the idea that Apple isn't deliberately trying to hamper home repair. What? No, of course Apple is deliberately trying to hamper home repair. I don't see how you could have read my comments and got the idea that Apple wasn't trying to do that. In fact, my central point about the screws is Apple's trying to deter people from repairing devices at home. They're not making it impossible (in fact, they're not even making it particularly hard), but they are definitely trying to encourage people not to attempt home repair. > If they are, then there's no point continuing the original discussion - Apple's difficulty of repair doesn't come from its great design, but because they are made to be unrepairable, and Apple is guilty of all the shameful practises they're being accused of in the first place. This is complete bullshit. Apple does not design their devices to be unrepairable. They just don't design them to be repairable. Unfortunately, designing devices to be small, not waste any space whatsoever, and get the best battery life and performance possible, also has a tendency to make the device hard to repair, because components are placed in such a way as to maximize the aforementioned goals rather than to be accessible for repair. This also leads to things like soldering components so you can avoid mounting brackets (and this probably also makes repair less likely, because the soldered component won't come unseated), which is a far bigger issue for repairability than the damn screws you're obsessed with.

ivanbakel 9y ago
> It's a deterrent. A deterrent how? Scenario: you want to repair your Apple device. You go online to order a new component, conveniently at the same time you get a cheap screwhead to open the device, and everything goes on as expected. If you don't know any better not to open this incredibly fragile device, nowhere along the way have you had a learning experience. >Repairing devices is not a profit center for Apple. >To Apple, the ideal device is one that never needs repairs. These are strong assertions about how Apple operates on the inside. But on the outside, an iPhone screen repair out of warranty can still run in the region of $150, and screen repairs are on the cheap side of services Apple provides. I sincerely doubt that Apple doesn't generate a profit with prices like that. https://support.apple.com/iphone/repair/screen-damage https://support.apple.com/iphone/repair/screen-damage >Apple does not design their devices to be unrepairable. They just don't design them to be repairable. These statements are, to me, identical. Repair factors into the design of devices - Apple engineers didn't suddenly forget about it while making an iPhone. If the device isn't meant to be repairable, you're instead intended to replace it, which is wasteful and also a boost to Apple's profits.
- eridius 9y ago
  > A deterrent how? I don't get it. You're arguing both that using custom screws is some horrendous thing that Apple's doing to screw over customers, and that it's not even a deterrent at all because you can buy screwdrivers for it. You can't have it both ways. > I sincerely doubt that Apple doesn't generate a profit with prices like that. Why do you doubt that? Do you have any information about what the BOM is for the repair (and don't forget, replacing the screen also means replacing the Touch ID sensor too). Do you have any information about how long it takes for an Apple repair technician to actually perform the repair, and how much they get paid? Do you actually have any information at all as to what it costs Apple to perform repairs? Because it doesn't sound like you do. That said, it's certainly possible that an individual out-of-warranty repair might cost more than strictly necessary, but if so this would presumably be to offset the cost of in-warranty repairs. I really have no idea if any individual Apple repair costs more than strictly necessary, but repairs as a whole are not something Apple does for a profit. > These statements are, to me, identical. Then you have an awfully rigid black & white view of the world, and there's not much more to discuss here.