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That's a fine hierarchy and all. But I have the feeling that a more efficient way of conversation is to get rid of the notion of 'winning' and argument and mov

by zby 19y ago

That's a fine hierarchy and all. But I have the feeling that a more efficient way of conversation is to get rid of the notion of 'winning' and argument and move to 'solving' the problem. That goes beyond the intellectual and into the cultural - and that is makes it harder - but it would have also more leverage.

omouse 19y ago
Winning is only a problem if your definition of it is fucked up. Winning an argument means you have found or are closer to a particular truth. The poisoning of various phrases and words leads to you focus on the emotions that are evoked rather than the definition. This is why I dislike arguing about politics or anything else. No one wants to really argue (where the argument is a logical and reasoned debate), they want agreement or acknowledgment that their beliefs are okay.
- zby 19y ago
  "Winning an argument means you have found or are closer to a particular truth" - no, it means that you convinced others that you are closer to a particular truth. Definition of win from http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/win http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/win transitive verb 1 a: to get possession of by effort or fortune b: to obtain by work : earn <striving to win a living from the sterile soil> 2 a: to gain in or as if in battle or contest <won the championship> b: to be the victor in <won the war> 3 a: to make friendly or favorable to oneself or to one's cause —often used with over<won him over with persuasive arguments> b: to induce to accept oneself in marriage <was unable to win the woman he loved> 4 a: to obtain (as ore, coal, or clay) by mining b: to prepare (as a vein or bed) for regular mining c: to recover (as metal) from ore 5: to reach by expenditure of effort For me the only matching definition is 2a - the argument is the contest and what you gain is the recognition that you were right.

by zby 19y ago

omouse 19y ago

Winning is only a problem if your definition of it is fucked up. Winning an argument means you have found or are closer to a particular truth. The poisoning of various phrases and words leads to you focus on the emotions that are evoked rather than the definition. This is why I dislike arguing about politics or anything else. No one wants to really argue (where the argument is a logical and reasoned debate), they want agreement or acknowledgment that their beliefs are okay.

zby 19y ago
"Winning an argument means you have found or are closer to a particular truth" - no, it means that you convinced others that you are closer to a particular truth. Definition of win from http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/win http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/win transitive verb 1 a: to get possession of by effort or fortune b: to obtain by work : earn <striving to win a living from the sterile soil> 2 a: to gain in or as if in battle or contest <won the championship> b: to be the victor in <won the war> 3 a: to make friendly or favorable to oneself or to one's cause —often used with over<won him over with persuasive arguments> b: to induce to accept oneself in marriage <was unable to win the woman he loved> 4 a: to obtain (as ore, coal, or clay) by mining b: to prepare (as a vein or bed) for regular mining c: to recover (as metal) from ore 5: to reach by expenditure of effort For me the only matching definition is 2a - the argument is the contest and what you gain is the recognition that you were right.