4 ms·

Oh the poor airlines! They would never, ever gratuitously exploit their passengers. How could these mean awful people take advantage of them like this? It's

by eunoia 9y ago

Oh the poor airlines! They would never, ever gratuitously exploit their passengers. How could these mean awful people take advantage of them like this? It's pretty hard to root for a corporation when it's smart individual vs faceless multinational ineptitude. Human nature perhaps?

mseebach 9y ago
By that logic, shoplifting from sufficiently large stores is ok. Not stealing bread to feed your family, just randomly grabbing stuff because you feel like it (and it isn't locked down).
- eunoia 9y ago
  Stealing physical items for fun != exploiting ineptitude to have a less terrible layover. It's also harder to even begin to measure the economic cost. I think it's more akin to buying terrible cheap seats to a show and moving into a better yet unoccupied section once it starts. The internet has always seemed to have a lot more moralists than the real world.
  - mikeash 9y ago
    Maybe, as long as you don't touch any of the food or drink. How likely is that, though?
    - eunoia 9y ago
      Did you know most airlines have absolutely awful inventory control over the supplies on their planes? If you make friends with a flight attendant they usually have the leeway to bring you just about anything you want for free. Is that stealing too? Pro tip: Bring candy or snacks for flight attendants on long flights, they appreciate it and may even reciprocate in kind.
      - mikeash 9y ago
        It's not stealing when they give it to you willingly without any fraud. Are you that fuzzy on the concept of "stealing" that you don't see the difference here?
        eunoia 9y ago
        Actually it is stealing, you're just not the one doing it.
        mikeash 9y ago
        I bet the airlines allow flight attendants to use their discretion here. Forging a ticket is just not equivalent to asking nicely if you can have something.
        somabc 9y ago
        Airlines have fired staff for eating a sandwich or drinking a coke taken from the plane e en if it was going to be thrown away. It's the same concept as most food outlets. They have no discretion yo give away free things to people who give them candy.
        eunoia 9y ago
        Anecdotally, it's rampant. To the point where crews will take bags(!) of booze and certain snacks off planes for layovers / gifts etc. And I didn't mean you should bring candy for the FA's solely in expectation of getting something in return. You should really do it because they work surprisingly stressful jobs with absurd hours. They often have to deal with the worst kind of people and could really use a metaphorical hug every once in a while. Source: Dated a FA for a long time. Know many others.
  - BeetleB 9y ago
    >I think it's more akin to buying terrible cheap seats to a show and moving into a better yet unoccupied section once it starts. And GP thinks otherwise. You are merely stating an opinion.
  - mwfunk 9y ago
    Actually no, the internet is just where many people realize that the things they think are OK sometimes aren't, because on the internet they're telling the whole world what sketchy stuff they do, instead of just their buddies that they do sketchy stuff with. You're much more likely to interact with people you wouldn't normally cross paths with on the internet, and the audience is much wider. Tangentially, I really hate buying good seats and getting to a show to find some cheapo sitting in them because they're proactively hoping no one shows up. If you want good seats, buy good seats. Lots of people in the real world feel that way, and respecting other people's wishes (even, and especially, when you think it's unreasonable and can't relate) is a basic part of being a grownup.
    - eunoia 9y ago
      Your first point is spot on and interesting. I would also argue that we all have different flaws and it's easy to judge others for theirs while pretending ours are somehow less bad. For example the most judgemental people I know are also some of the "worst" people I know. Their morality matrix is just incredibly biased towards looking favorably upon themselves vs others. As for the tangent, if you can't be bothered to show up for a show by the time it starts you can at least be bothered to say "Hey, these are my seats." I've been on both sides of that interaction many times. Every time it's been resolved immediately and amicably. That might be too much human interaction though. Maybe we should get further away from humans talking to each other and invent another app to solve this "problem".
      - hueving 9y ago
        It sounds like you have no problem using services/goods you didn't pay for. I don't think you're going to have any productive discussion trying to convince other people that your moral position is correct because it directly results in a terrible society that cannot operate on trust at all.
        eunoia 9y ago
        You've been casting a lot of stones in the comments. If you've really never torrented a song, used a friend's Netflix account, snuck onto the floor of a concert, took an extra travel bottle of shampoo from a hotel maid's cart etc. etc. etc... Then I truly commend you. The world needs more people like you. But I highly doubt that's the case. Meanwhile I'll be the monster over here creating a terrible society by using some free wifi and a place to charge my laptop to get some work done halfway through a long trip.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- watty 9y ago
  Apparently it's ok to create fake barcodes.
arnarbi 9y ago
Opposing stealing is now rooting for corporations?
- eunoia 9y ago
  Many/most forms of hacking could be construed as stealing if you squint hard enough. What was this community founded around again? Do you think "disruption" is a peaceful, happy, 100% beneficial process for everyone involved? Is Uber stealing by taking business from incumbents that play by a different (regulated) rulebook?
  - kinkrtyavimoodh 9y ago
    This 'community' (to the extent that all the users of this site can be clubbed into one) was definitely not formed on any founding principle which would legitimize theft. Not that sneaking into airport lounges is some huge theft, but acting like it's completely okay isn't cool either.
    - eunoia 9y ago
      I agree, it's not 100% okay. I wouldn't feel bad doing it though. I also wouldn't do it in a situation where my presence hurts another paying customer (i.e. full lounge). My personal ethics apply to how my actions impact other living things. I don't lose sleep worrying if I've wronged an entity created solely for the purpose of maximizing shareholder value. I'm honestly surprised how many people don't agree with that. To each their own I suppose. Edit: You're totally right about the futility of trying to shove all of us into any one descriptive bucket though. That was a mistake.
      - hueving 9y ago
        >I'm honestly surprised how many people don't agree with that. To each their own I suppose. You're advocating for stealing from businesses. When enough people like you do this, it results in either higher prices for honest people or the loss of a service entirely.
bdcravens 9y ago
I don't think it's rooting for a corporation, but a simple matter of ethics.
- finnn 9y ago
  They have no ethics while exploiting you for as much money as possible, so you should be nice to them and treat them as you would another human? Edit: sorry, this was kind of a flippant remark that I made without thinking a lot.
  - opportune 9y ago
    That's a vast exaggeration of things. "Exploiting" my ass. You know the reason why airlines are so shitty? Because people only buy the cheapest tickets to their destination. I'm guilty of this myself. The end result is a race to the bottom . And yes, when the man refused to get off the United plane, he should not have been beaten. Big deal, hundreds of millions of people fly every year. The fact that that happened sucks, but the reality is that 99.99% of people will at worst just deal with incompetent customer service during a cancelled or heavily delayed flight. That doesn't give you justification to steal from the airliner. This is a discussion I feel you would have with a teenager.
  - ImSkeptical 9y ago
    Don't they transport you and your luggage safely through the air at high speed for a sum of money that you agreed to pay? Where is exploitation coming from?
    - zo1 9y ago
      Capitalism, apparently. Though, to be a bit more generous, I'd interpret that people hate airlines without really having a conscious reason, so they make something up that's visible and easy to be upset about. E.g. Cost of flying, leg-room, crappy service, "run by evil corporation". I'd posit that they somehow see something wrong with it, yet can't pin-point what that is. In my view, somehow they realize that a government-enabled and enforced monopoly makes the whole thing unfair. And if only we had no intervention and prevention of competition, they'd finally see "nice" airlines. But until they actively "see" that, they'll always think that it's the government that's preventing the really nice peachy happy people from running an airline that they'd enjoy using.

by eunoia 9y ago

mseebach 9y ago

By that logic, shoplifting from sufficiently large stores is ok. Not stealing bread to feed your family, just randomly grabbing stuff because you feel like it (and it isn't locked down).

eunoia 9y ago
Stealing physical items for fun != exploiting ineptitude to have a less terrible layover. It's also harder to even begin to measure the economic cost. I think it's more akin to buying terrible cheap seats to a show and moving into a better yet unoccupied section once it starts. The internet has always seemed to have a lot more moralists than the real world.
- mikeash 9y ago
  Maybe, as long as you don't touch any of the food or drink. How likely is that, though?
  - eunoia 9y ago
    Did you know most airlines have absolutely awful inventory control over the supplies on their planes? If you make friends with a flight attendant they usually have the leeway to bring you just about anything you want for free. Is that stealing too? Pro tip: Bring candy or snacks for flight attendants on long flights, they appreciate it and may even reciprocate in kind.
    - mikeash 9y ago
      It's not stealing when they give it to you willingly without any fraud. Are you that fuzzy on the concept of "stealing" that you don't see the difference here?
      - eunoia 9y ago
        Actually it is stealing, you're just not the one doing it.
        mikeash 9y ago
        I bet the airlines allow flight attendants to use their discretion here. Forging a ticket is just not equivalent to asking nicely if you can have something.
      - somabc 9y ago
        Airlines have fired staff for eating a sandwich or drinking a coke taken from the plane e en if it was going to be thrown away. It's the same concept as most food outlets. They have no discretion yo give away free things to people who give them candy.
        eunoia 9y ago
        Anecdotally, it's rampant. To the point where crews will take bags(!) of booze and certain snacks off planes for layovers / gifts etc. And I didn't mean you should bring candy for the FA's solely in expectation of getting something in return. You should really do it because they work surprisingly stressful jobs with absurd hours. They often have to deal with the worst kind of people and could really use a metaphorical hug every once in a while. Source: Dated a FA for a long time. Know many others.
- BeetleB 9y ago
  >I think it's more akin to buying terrible cheap seats to a show and moving into a better yet unoccupied section once it starts. And GP thinks otherwise. You are merely stating an opinion.
- mwfunk 9y ago
  Actually no, the internet is just where many people realize that the things they think are OK sometimes aren't, because on the internet they're telling the whole world what sketchy stuff they do, instead of just their buddies that they do sketchy stuff with. You're much more likely to interact with people you wouldn't normally cross paths with on the internet, and the audience is much wider. Tangentially, I really hate buying good seats and getting to a show to find some cheapo sitting in them because they're proactively hoping no one shows up. If you want good seats, buy good seats. Lots of people in the real world feel that way, and respecting other people's wishes (even, and especially, when you think it's unreasonable and can't relate) is a basic part of being a grownup.
  - eunoia 9y ago
    Your first point is spot on and interesting. I would also argue that we all have different flaws and it's easy to judge others for theirs while pretending ours are somehow less bad. For example the most judgemental people I know are also some of the "worst" people I know. Their morality matrix is just incredibly biased towards looking favorably upon themselves vs others. As for the tangent, if you can't be bothered to show up for a show by the time it starts you can at least be bothered to say "Hey, these are my seats." I've been on both sides of that interaction many times. Every time it's been resolved immediately and amicably. That might be too much human interaction though. Maybe we should get further away from humans talking to each other and invent another app to solve this "problem".
    - hueving 9y ago
      It sounds like you have no problem using services/goods you didn't pay for. I don't think you're going to have any productive discussion trying to convince other people that your moral position is correct because it directly results in a terrible society that cannot operate on trust at all.
      - eunoia 9y ago
        You've been casting a lot of stones in the comments. If you've really never torrented a song, used a friend's Netflix account, snuck onto the floor of a concert, took an extra travel bottle of shampoo from a hotel maid's cart etc. etc. etc... Then I truly commend you. The world needs more people like you. But I highly doubt that's the case. Meanwhile I'll be the monster over here creating a terrible society by using some free wifi and a place to charge my laptop to get some work done halfway through a long trip.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
watty 9y ago
Apparently it's ok to create fake barcodes.

arnarbi 9y ago

Opposing stealing is now rooting for corporations?

eunoia 9y ago
Many/most forms of hacking could be construed as stealing if you squint hard enough. What was this community founded around again? Do you think "disruption" is a peaceful, happy, 100% beneficial process for everyone involved? Is Uber stealing by taking business from incumbents that play by a different (regulated) rulebook?
- kinkrtyavimoodh 9y ago
  This 'community' (to the extent that all the users of this site can be clubbed into one) was definitely not formed on any founding principle which would legitimize theft. Not that sneaking into airport lounges is some huge theft, but acting like it's completely okay isn't cool either.
  - eunoia 9y ago
    I agree, it's not 100% okay. I wouldn't feel bad doing it though. I also wouldn't do it in a situation where my presence hurts another paying customer (i.e. full lounge). My personal ethics apply to how my actions impact other living things. I don't lose sleep worrying if I've wronged an entity created solely for the purpose of maximizing shareholder value. I'm honestly surprised how many people don't agree with that. To each their own I suppose. Edit: You're totally right about the futility of trying to shove all of us into any one descriptive bucket though. That was a mistake.
    - hueving 9y ago
      >I'm honestly surprised how many people don't agree with that. To each their own I suppose. You're advocating for stealing from businesses. When enough people like you do this, it results in either higher prices for honest people or the loss of a service entirely.

bdcravens 9y ago

I don't think it's rooting for a corporation, but a simple matter of ethics.

finnn 9y ago
They have no ethics while exploiting you for as much money as possible, so you should be nice to them and treat them as you would another human? Edit: sorry, this was kind of a flippant remark that I made without thinking a lot.
- opportune 9y ago
  That's a vast exaggeration of things. "Exploiting" my ass. You know the reason why airlines are so shitty? Because people only buy the cheapest tickets to their destination. I'm guilty of this myself. The end result is a race to the bottom . And yes, when the man refused to get off the United plane, he should not have been beaten. Big deal, hundreds of millions of people fly every year. The fact that that happened sucks, but the reality is that 99.99% of people will at worst just deal with incompetent customer service during a cancelled or heavily delayed flight. That doesn't give you justification to steal from the airliner. This is a discussion I feel you would have with a teenager.
- ImSkeptical 9y ago
  Don't they transport you and your luggage safely through the air at high speed for a sum of money that you agreed to pay? Where is exploitation coming from?
  - zo1 9y ago
    Capitalism, apparently. Though, to be a bit more generous, I'd interpret that people hate airlines without really having a conscious reason, so they make something up that's visible and easy to be upset about. E.g. Cost of flying, leg-room, crappy service, "run by evil corporation". I'd posit that they somehow see something wrong with it, yet can't pin-point what that is. In my view, somehow they realize that a government-enabled and enforced monopoly makes the whole thing unfair. And if only we had no intervention and prevention of competition, they'd finally see "nice" airlines. But until they actively "see" that, they'll always think that it's the government that's preventing the really nice peachy happy people from running an airline that they'd enjoy using.