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It's not all that hard to find screwdrivers for the fancy screws that Apple (and other companies) use. And the justification is that it's not at all anti-consu

It's not all that hard to find screwdrivers for the fancy screws that Apple (and other companies) use. And the justification is that it's not at all anti-consumer. Allowing consumers to disassemble the devices will practically guarantee that they break (and in a manner that voids the warrantee). The only people who should be disassembling them are people specially trained to repair them, or experts who have a lot of practice disassembling electronics safely. The former have the screwdrivers already, and as I already said, it's not that hard for the latter to get their hands on the screwdrivers.

scottLobster 9y ago
"Safely"? There's nothing in a iPhone, short of physically breaking the battery (which is hard to do), that would be even a remote danger to a user. Taking apart a phone is no more dangerous than taking apart a lego model. And if someone wants to void their warranty than that's their business. My Thinkpad is largely modular and designed to be disassembled/parts replaced. Several years now and somehow it's remained intact...
- jws 9y ago
  I suspect "safely" here applies to the device, not the technician, though a short on a pair of unfused battery leads will still be exciting for the technician. Imperceptible static is a silent killer for the device.
  - eridius 9y ago
    Yes, my "safely" meant "without destroying the device".
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
ivanbakel 9y ago
> It's not all that hard to find screwdrivers for the fancy screws that Apple (and other companies) use. And yet it's a barrier to their repair. Is it excuseable? Is there a reason you felt the need to mention how "hard" it is to find these specially-designed screwdrivers, and yet don't at all give a good reason for why they're used in the first place? >Allowing consumers to disassemble the devices will practically guarantee that they break That's a responsibility for customers, not Apple. Better still, Apple could release the kind of documentation that would prevent customers from breaking devices when opening them up, but they've chosen not to do that. Do they really care about the danger of home repair, considering that? >The only people who should be disassembling them are people specially trained to repair them That should really be the choice of the customer. Apple devices are not in the common interest - your neighbour pulling apart their phone is none of your business. Why do you feel this shouldn't be available to whoever ends up owning the device?
- criddell 9y ago
  > And yet it's a barrier to their repair. It's not much of a barrier. If that stops you, then you probably weren't going to be able to fix anything inside the phone anyway.
  - ivanbakel 9y ago
    >It's not much of a barrier. This would be missing the point. There is a barrier in place. It hasn't been justified by anybody for technical reasons, so it exists only for the sake of being a barrier to repair. Is that acceptable behaviour from a company?
    - khedoros1 9y ago
      If disassembly will cause the company more harm than benefit (e.g. consequences of inept repair attempts, or even just idle curiosity), it makes sense for them to put up a toekn barrier of some kind. I think that as far as the actual repairability of Apple devices goes, focusing on the screws is bikeshedding. The screws are trivial to get around. Why not talk about the glued-together, soldered-on parts instead? Those seem like much bigger issues to me.
      - ivanbakel 9y ago
        Because the internal glue might be forgiven by Apple's design needs, in the kind of statement like the one they made at the top of this thread. The screws aren't important as a barrier to repairability, but because they have no other purpose. It is not a consequence of product design to select a screw solely on the virtue that it makes user repair more difficult. On principle, the screws are more significant as a reflection of Apple's negative attitude towards its customers.
        eridius 9y ago
        Its attitude is that its customers shouldn't be self-repairing devices. And that attitude is absolutely correct. The average Apple customer has no business whatsoever opening their device. And that's what the screws are, a small barrier that tells the user "you shouldn't open this unless you know what you're doing".
eridius 9y ago
Look, I get why I'm being downvoted, the HN community is a group of, well, hackers, and hackers like to be able to do things like muck about with their devices. But you need to see things from the perspective of the average consumer. The only reason the average consumer would want to open up an iPhone or a MacBook is to do something like swap out the battery. And since these devices aren't designed with that in mind, the average consumer is very likely to damage or destroy their device in attempting to do so. Apple has a responsibility to remove the obvious easy ways for a customer to accidentally destroy their device. In this way, using custom screws is no different than trying to make the screen less likely to crack when dropped. But Apple isn't making it impossible to open their devices. They're just making it so the average consumer can't do it. It's not that hard to get pentalobe screwdrivers. Heck, ifixit.com even sells them. Here's a screwdriver bit you can buy for just $4.95 (https://www.ifixit.com/Store/Tools/Tri-point-Y000-Screwdriver-Bit-for-Apple-Watch-and-iPhone-7/IF145-309-2 https://www.ifixit.com/Store/Tools/Tri-point-Y000-Screwdrive...). It's not that big of a deal.
- abritinthebay 9y ago
  If there is one thing HN commenters are, by and large, not very good at... it's understanding that they are NOT the average consumer. It's been true of all hacker/tech forums since well before the "no wifi, less space than a Nomad. Lame" era.
  - likeclockwork 9y ago
    Is this Average Consumer News?
- khedoros1 9y ago
  > The only reason the average consumer would want to open up an iPhone or a MacBook is to do something like swap out the battery. I think that the average consumer is more likely to go buy a new one, or put up with the nuisance of a short battery life. Almost all the Apple replacement batteries that I see on Amazon come with the special screwdrivers anyhow. So if they're determined enough to actually order a battery, it's almost inevitable that they'll also get the tools to do whatever damage they can. > Apple has a responsibility to remove the obvious easy ways for a customer to accidentally destroy their device. I don't think that Apple has a responsibility to protect customers from their own conscious actions, but I think some of the minor roadblocks make sense from a business perspective; no manufacturer wants to deal with a customer that "repaired" their own device and expects the company to still honor the warranty.

scottLobster 9y ago

"Safely"? There's nothing in a iPhone, short of physically breaking the battery (which is hard to do), that would be even a remote danger to a user. Taking apart a phone is no more dangerous than taking apart a lego model. And if someone wants to void their warranty than that's their business. My Thinkpad is largely modular and designed to be disassembled/parts replaced. Several years now and somehow it's remained intact...

jws 9y ago
I suspect "safely" here applies to the device, not the technician, though a short on a pair of unfused battery leads will still be exciting for the technician. Imperceptible static is a silent killer for the device.
- eridius 9y ago
  Yes, my "safely" meant "without destroying the device".

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

ivanbakel 9y ago

> It's not all that hard to find screwdrivers for the fancy screws that Apple (and other companies) use. And yet it's a barrier to their repair. Is it excuseable? Is there a reason you felt the need to mention how "hard" it is to find these specially-designed screwdrivers, and yet don't at all give a good reason for why they're used in the first place? >Allowing consumers to disassemble the devices will practically guarantee that they break That's a responsibility for customers, not Apple. Better still, Apple could release the kind of documentation that would prevent customers from breaking devices when opening them up, but they've chosen not to do that. Do they really care about the danger of home repair, considering that? >The only people who should be disassembling them are people specially trained to repair them That should really be the choice of the customer. Apple devices are not in the common interest - your neighbour pulling apart their phone is none of your business. Why do you feel this shouldn't be available to whoever ends up owning the device?

criddell 9y ago
> And yet it's a barrier to their repair. It's not much of a barrier. If that stops you, then you probably weren't going to be able to fix anything inside the phone anyway.
- ivanbakel 9y ago
  >It's not much of a barrier. This would be missing the point. There is a barrier in place. It hasn't been justified by anybody for technical reasons, so it exists only for the sake of being a barrier to repair. Is that acceptable behaviour from a company?
  - khedoros1 9y ago
    If disassembly will cause the company more harm than benefit (e.g. consequences of inept repair attempts, or even just idle curiosity), it makes sense for them to put up a toekn barrier of some kind. I think that as far as the actual repairability of Apple devices goes, focusing on the screws is bikeshedding. The screws are trivial to get around. Why not talk about the glued-together, soldered-on parts instead? Those seem like much bigger issues to me.
    - ivanbakel 9y ago
      Because the internal glue might be forgiven by Apple's design needs, in the kind of statement like the one they made at the top of this thread. The screws aren't important as a barrier to repairability, but because they have no other purpose. It is not a consequence of product design to select a screw solely on the virtue that it makes user repair more difficult. On principle, the screws are more significant as a reflection of Apple's negative attitude towards its customers.
      - eridius 9y ago
        Its attitude is that its customers shouldn't be self-repairing devices. And that attitude is absolutely correct. The average Apple customer has no business whatsoever opening their device. And that's what the screws are, a small barrier that tells the user "you shouldn't open this unless you know what you're doing".

eridius 9y ago

Look, I get why I'm being downvoted, the HN community is a group of, well, hackers, and hackers like to be able to do things like muck about with their devices. But you need to see things from the perspective of the average consumer. The only reason the average consumer would want to open up an iPhone or a MacBook is to do something like swap out the battery. And since these devices aren't designed with that in mind, the average consumer is very likely to damage or destroy their device in attempting to do so. Apple has a responsibility to remove the obvious easy ways for a customer to accidentally destroy their device. In this way, using custom screws is no different than trying to make the screen less likely to crack when dropped. But Apple isn't making it impossible to open their devices. They're just making it so the average consumer can't do it. It's not that hard to get pentalobe screwdrivers. Heck, ifixit.com even sells them. Here's a screwdriver bit you can buy for just $4.95 (https://www.ifixit.com/Store/Tools/Tri-point-Y000-Screwdriver-Bit-for-Apple-Watch-and-iPhone-7/IF145-309-2 https://www.ifixit.com/Store/Tools/Tri-point-Y000-Screwdrive...). It's not that big of a deal.

abritinthebay 9y ago
If there is one thing HN commenters are, by and large, not very good at... it's understanding that they are NOT the average consumer. It's been true of all hacker/tech forums since well before the "no wifi, less space than a Nomad. Lame" era.
- likeclockwork 9y ago
  Is this Average Consumer News?
khedoros1 9y ago
> The only reason the average consumer would want to open up an iPhone or a MacBook is to do something like swap out the battery. I think that the average consumer is more likely to go buy a new one, or put up with the nuisance of a short battery life. Almost all the Apple replacement batteries that I see on Amazon come with the special screwdrivers anyhow. So if they're determined enough to actually order a battery, it's almost inevitable that they'll also get the tools to do whatever damage they can. > Apple has a responsibility to remove the obvious easy ways for a customer to accidentally destroy their device. I don't think that Apple has a responsibility to protect customers from their own conscious actions, but I think some of the minor roadblocks make sense from a business perspective; no manufacturer wants to deal with a customer that "repaired" their own device and expects the company to still honor the warranty.