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What's the justification for anti-consumer practises like proprietary, uncommon screw designs? The difference between a Phillips and a 5-clover is the bill Appl

What's the justification for anti-consumer practises like proprietary, uncommon screw designs? The difference between a Phillips and a 5-clover is the bill Apple gets for repairs. >When repairs are needed, authorized providers can ensure the quality, safety, and security of repairs for customers Do you think this is reasonable when Apple tries as much as possible to minimise the alternative at the cost of consumer choice?

eridius 9y ago
It's not all that hard to find screwdrivers for the fancy screws that Apple (and other companies) use. And the justification is that it's not at all anti-consumer. Allowing consumers to disassemble the devices will practically guarantee that they break (and in a manner that voids the warrantee). The only people who should be disassembling them are people specially trained to repair them, or experts who have a lot of practice disassembling electronics safely. The former have the screwdrivers already, and as I already said, it's not that hard for the latter to get their hands on the screwdrivers.
- scottLobster 9y ago
  "Safely"? There's nothing in a iPhone, short of physically breaking the battery (which is hard to do), that would be even a remote danger to a user. Taking apart a phone is no more dangerous than taking apart a lego model. And if someone wants to void their warranty than that's their business. My Thinkpad is largely modular and designed to be disassembled/parts replaced. Several years now and somehow it's remained intact...
  - jws 9y ago
    I suspect "safely" here applies to the device, not the technician, though a short on a pair of unfused battery leads will still be exciting for the technician. Imperceptible static is a silent killer for the device.
    - eridius 9y ago
      Yes, my "safely" meant "without destroying the device".
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- ivanbakel 9y ago
  > It's not all that hard to find screwdrivers for the fancy screws that Apple (and other companies) use. And yet it's a barrier to their repair. Is it excuseable? Is there a reason you felt the need to mention how "hard" it is to find these specially-designed screwdrivers, and yet don't at all give a good reason for why they're used in the first place? >Allowing consumers to disassemble the devices will practically guarantee that they break That's a responsibility for customers, not Apple. Better still, Apple could release the kind of documentation that would prevent customers from breaking devices when opening them up, but they've chosen not to do that. Do they really care about the danger of home repair, considering that? >The only people who should be disassembling them are people specially trained to repair them That should really be the choice of the customer. Apple devices are not in the common interest - your neighbour pulling apart their phone is none of your business. Why do you feel this shouldn't be available to whoever ends up owning the device?
  - criddell 9y ago
    > And yet it's a barrier to their repair. It's not much of a barrier. If that stops you, then you probably weren't going to be able to fix anything inside the phone anyway.
    - ivanbakel 9y ago
      >It's not much of a barrier. This would be missing the point. There is a barrier in place. It hasn't been justified by anybody for technical reasons, so it exists only for the sake of being a barrier to repair. Is that acceptable behaviour from a company?
      - khedoros1 9y ago
        If disassembly will cause the company more harm than benefit (e.g. consequences of inept repair attempts, or even just idle curiosity), it makes sense for them to put up a toekn barrier of some kind. I think that as far as the actual repairability of Apple devices goes, focusing on the screws is bikeshedding. The screws are trivial to get around. Why not talk about the glued-together, soldered-on parts instead? Those seem like much bigger issues to me.
- eridius 9y ago
  Look, I get why I'm being downvoted, the HN community is a group of, well, hackers, and hackers like to be able to do things like muck about with their devices. But you need to see things from the perspective of the average consumer. The only reason the average consumer would want to open up an iPhone or a MacBook is to do something like swap out the battery. And since these devices aren't designed with that in mind, the average consumer is very likely to damage or destroy their device in attempting to do so. Apple has a responsibility to remove the obvious easy ways for a customer to accidentally destroy their device. In this way, using custom screws is no different than trying to make the screen less likely to crack when dropped. But Apple isn't making it impossible to open their devices. They're just making it so the average consumer can't do it. It's not that hard to get pentalobe screwdrivers. Heck, ifixit.com even sells them. Here's a screwdriver bit you can buy for just $4.95 (https://www.ifixit.com/Store/Tools/Tri-point-Y000-Screwdriver-Bit-for-Apple-Watch-and-iPhone-7/IF145-309-2 https://www.ifixit.com/Store/Tools/Tri-point-Y000-Screwdrive...). It's not that big of a deal.
  - abritinthebay 9y ago
    If there is one thing HN commenters are, by and large, not very good at... it's understanding that they are NOT the average consumer. It's been true of all hacker/tech forums since well before the "no wifi, less space than a Nomad. Lame" era.
    - likeclockwork 9y ago
      Is this Average Consumer News?
  - khedoros1 9y ago
    > The only reason the average consumer would want to open up an iPhone or a MacBook is to do something like swap out the battery. I think that the average consumer is more likely to go buy a new one, or put up with the nuisance of a short battery life. Almost all the Apple replacement batteries that I see on Amazon come with the special screwdrivers anyhow. So if they're determined enough to actually order a battery, it's almost inevitable that they'll also get the tools to do whatever damage they can. > Apple has a responsibility to remove the obvious easy ways for a customer to accidentally destroy their device. I don't think that Apple has a responsibility to protect customers from their own conscious actions, but I think some of the minor roadblocks make sense from a business perspective; no manufacturer wants to deal with a customer that "repaired" their own device and expects the company to still honor the warranty.
jws 9y ago
Tiny Phillips screws are not optimal for assembly. The Phillips head is designed to cam out before a screw can be twisted off, which is great of you are screwing boards together, but not really any sort of criteria you care about for automated assembly where the finished product needs to be blemish free. This is why you see a lot of Torx heads on electronics and automobiles. As far as the penalobular screw goes… yeah, that is I think deliberately weird, but when you buy your replacement battery or screen or whatever part, the company will either include for free or minimal charge the pentalobular bit, so it isn't really stopping you from repairing. What I think the bit does prevent is consumers opening and peeking around in their phone. Curiosity is great for learning, but it generally doesn't come with a grounding strap. The ICs in the phone are trivially damaged, not necessarily immediately destroyed, but set on a path to future failure by static charges too small to be noticed by the curious finger. Apple finds themselves on the warranty hook to replace these failed boards. It is certainly in their interest to keep sight seers out of the phones.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- tomsthumb 9y ago
  These are all great points. But Why won't they sell me a screwdriver?
  - rifung 9y ago
    Because not enough people would buy it to justify the expense in time/money required to offer selling it? They probably don't even want to recommend people fix their own devices because people will try, screw up, and then go to support, and they'd have to train their support staff to handle this case.
  - erikpukinskis 9y ago
    If they give you the tools you need to void your warranty that sends a bit of a mixed signal. And anyway, isn't it moot? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00A0P3XUY/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00A0P3XUY/
Clubber 9y ago
If they wanted to make them unserviceable, they would use one way screws. I assume the pentalobular screws improve mass production through more efficient torque or something like that. I have one in my toolbox, they are cheap.
- ivanbakel 9y ago
  If it were just for mass production, Apple service wouldn't have gone around replacing older screws with the new design: http://www.cio.com/article/2411922/consumer-technology/the-case-of-apple-s-mystery-screw.html http://www.cio.com/article/2411922/consumer-technology/the-c... Besides, Apple wouldn't necessarily want devices to be unserviceable - repair fees are a source of income as well.
  - criddell 9y ago
    Do they ever re-use screws?
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
criddell 9y ago
> What's the justification for anti-consumer practises like proprietary, uncommon screw designs? Remember the (probably apocryphal) stories about Van Halen's contract requiring a bowl of M&M's with one color removed? It was supposedly a signal to them that somebody had actually read their contract closely. Maybe there's something similar going on with the screws. Could it be a way for Apple to better ensure that Foxconn is using the hardware that the contract specifically calls for?
yoz-y 9y ago
I never understood the problem with pentalobe screws. Yes the head is uncommon but it is trivial to get a screwdriver with the correct head. I came across several screws that were too small for the heads I had in my toolbox and never accused the assembler for using uncommon screws. Is there a patent on the pentalobe head so the screwdrivers are illegal?

eridius 9y ago

It's not all that hard to find screwdrivers for the fancy screws that Apple (and other companies) use. And the justification is that it's not at all anti-consumer. Allowing consumers to disassemble the devices will practically guarantee that they break (and in a manner that voids the warrantee). The only people who should be disassembling them are people specially trained to repair them, or experts who have a lot of practice disassembling electronics safely. The former have the screwdrivers already, and as I already said, it's not that hard for the latter to get their hands on the screwdrivers.

scottLobster 9y ago
"Safely"? There's nothing in a iPhone, short of physically breaking the battery (which is hard to do), that would be even a remote danger to a user. Taking apart a phone is no more dangerous than taking apart a lego model. And if someone wants to void their warranty than that's their business. My Thinkpad is largely modular and designed to be disassembled/parts replaced. Several years now and somehow it's remained intact...
- jws 9y ago
  I suspect "safely" here applies to the device, not the technician, though a short on a pair of unfused battery leads will still be exciting for the technician. Imperceptible static is a silent killer for the device.
  - eridius 9y ago
    Yes, my "safely" meant "without destroying the device".
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
ivanbakel 9y ago
> It's not all that hard to find screwdrivers for the fancy screws that Apple (and other companies) use. And yet it's a barrier to their repair. Is it excuseable? Is there a reason you felt the need to mention how "hard" it is to find these specially-designed screwdrivers, and yet don't at all give a good reason for why they're used in the first place? >Allowing consumers to disassemble the devices will practically guarantee that they break That's a responsibility for customers, not Apple. Better still, Apple could release the kind of documentation that would prevent customers from breaking devices when opening them up, but they've chosen not to do that. Do they really care about the danger of home repair, considering that? >The only people who should be disassembling them are people specially trained to repair them That should really be the choice of the customer. Apple devices are not in the common interest - your neighbour pulling apart their phone is none of your business. Why do you feel this shouldn't be available to whoever ends up owning the device?
- criddell 9y ago
  > And yet it's a barrier to their repair. It's not much of a barrier. If that stops you, then you probably weren't going to be able to fix anything inside the phone anyway.
  - ivanbakel 9y ago
    >It's not much of a barrier. This would be missing the point. There is a barrier in place. It hasn't been justified by anybody for technical reasons, so it exists only for the sake of being a barrier to repair. Is that acceptable behaviour from a company?
    - khedoros1 9y ago
      If disassembly will cause the company more harm than benefit (e.g. consequences of inept repair attempts, or even just idle curiosity), it makes sense for them to put up a toekn barrier of some kind. I think that as far as the actual repairability of Apple devices goes, focusing on the screws is bikeshedding. The screws are trivial to get around. Why not talk about the glued-together, soldered-on parts instead? Those seem like much bigger issues to me.
eridius 9y ago
Look, I get why I'm being downvoted, the HN community is a group of, well, hackers, and hackers like to be able to do things like muck about with their devices. But you need to see things from the perspective of the average consumer. The only reason the average consumer would want to open up an iPhone or a MacBook is to do something like swap out the battery. And since these devices aren't designed with that in mind, the average consumer is very likely to damage or destroy their device in attempting to do so. Apple has a responsibility to remove the obvious easy ways for a customer to accidentally destroy their device. In this way, using custom screws is no different than trying to make the screen less likely to crack when dropped. But Apple isn't making it impossible to open their devices. They're just making it so the average consumer can't do it. It's not that hard to get pentalobe screwdrivers. Heck, ifixit.com even sells them. Here's a screwdriver bit you can buy for just $4.95 (https://www.ifixit.com/Store/Tools/Tri-point-Y000-Screwdriver-Bit-for-Apple-Watch-and-iPhone-7/IF145-309-2 https://www.ifixit.com/Store/Tools/Tri-point-Y000-Screwdrive...). It's not that big of a deal.
- abritinthebay 9y ago
  If there is one thing HN commenters are, by and large, not very good at... it's understanding that they are NOT the average consumer. It's been true of all hacker/tech forums since well before the "no wifi, less space than a Nomad. Lame" era.
  - likeclockwork 9y ago
    Is this Average Consumer News?
- khedoros1 9y ago
  > The only reason the average consumer would want to open up an iPhone or a MacBook is to do something like swap out the battery. I think that the average consumer is more likely to go buy a new one, or put up with the nuisance of a short battery life. Almost all the Apple replacement batteries that I see on Amazon come with the special screwdrivers anyhow. So if they're determined enough to actually order a battery, it's almost inevitable that they'll also get the tools to do whatever damage they can. > Apple has a responsibility to remove the obvious easy ways for a customer to accidentally destroy their device. I don't think that Apple has a responsibility to protect customers from their own conscious actions, but I think some of the minor roadblocks make sense from a business perspective; no manufacturer wants to deal with a customer that "repaired" their own device and expects the company to still honor the warranty.

jws 9y ago

Tiny Phillips screws are not optimal for assembly. The Phillips head is designed to cam out before a screw can be twisted off, which is great of you are screwing boards together, but not really any sort of criteria you care about for automated assembly where the finished product needs to be blemish free. This is why you see a lot of Torx heads on electronics and automobiles. As far as the penalobular screw goes… yeah, that is I think deliberately weird, but when you buy your replacement battery or screen or whatever part, the company will either include for free or minimal charge the pentalobular bit, so it isn't really stopping you from repairing. What I think the bit does prevent is consumers opening and peeking around in their phone. Curiosity is great for learning, but it generally doesn't come with a grounding strap. The ICs in the phone are trivially damaged, not necessarily immediately destroyed, but set on a path to future failure by static charges too small to be noticed by the curious finger. Apple finds themselves on the warranty hook to replace these failed boards. It is certainly in their interest to keep sight seers out of the phones.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
tomsthumb 9y ago
These are all great points. But Why won't they sell me a screwdriver?
- rifung 9y ago
  Because not enough people would buy it to justify the expense in time/money required to offer selling it? They probably don't even want to recommend people fix their own devices because people will try, screw up, and then go to support, and they'd have to train their support staff to handle this case.
- erikpukinskis 9y ago
  If they give you the tools you need to void your warranty that sends a bit of a mixed signal. And anyway, isn't it moot? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00A0P3XUY/ https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00A0P3XUY/

Clubber 9y ago

If they wanted to make them unserviceable, they would use one way screws. I assume the pentalobular screws improve mass production through more efficient torque or something like that. I have one in my toolbox, they are cheap.

ivanbakel 9y ago
If it were just for mass production, Apple service wouldn't have gone around replacing older screws with the new design: http://www.cio.com/article/2411922/consumer-technology/the-case-of-apple-s-mystery-screw.html http://www.cio.com/article/2411922/consumer-technology/the-c... Besides, Apple wouldn't necessarily want devices to be unserviceable - repair fees are a source of income as well.
- criddell 9y ago
  Do they ever re-use screws?

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

criddell 9y ago

> What's the justification for anti-consumer practises like proprietary, uncommon screw designs? Remember the (probably apocryphal) stories about Van Halen's contract requiring a bowl of M&M's with one color removed? It was supposedly a signal to them that somebody had actually read their contract closely. Maybe there's something similar going on with the screws. Could it be a way for Apple to better ensure that Foxconn is using the hardware that the contract specifically calls for?

yoz-y 9y ago

I never understood the problem with pentalobe screws. Yes the head is uncommon but it is trivial to get a screwdriver with the correct head. I came across several screws that were too small for the heads I had in my toolbox and never accused the assembler for using uncommon screws. Is there a patent on the pentalobe head so the screwdrivers are illegal?