4 ms·

>> ...the bank announced they have decided to kill it because they don't like it, but that's got little to do with Clojure... I think that had something to do

>> ...the bank announced they have decided to kill it because they don't like it, but that's got little to do with Clojure... I think that had something to do with Clojure. The thing is, businesses usually follow best-practices and choosing a language like Clojure is certainly not a best-practice (even if developers had really good reasons to use it). For example, who maintains the code? How many Clojurists (is that a word?) can you find to work on the project? The bank would be better off by sticking to Java/Python/C#/etc. Just because you can do it, doesn't mean that you should. That's a bad habit I've seen from many developers (honestly, I understand the interest to learn more languages and use them at work, but that often results in short-sightedness when building a project).

bpicolo 9y ago
> How many Clojurists (is that a word?) can you find to work on the project? You don't need to look for Clojurians, you just need to look for developers. Getting to write in some slightly off-the-standard languages is a big draw for a lot of competent devs
- flavio81 9y ago
  > You don't need to look for Clojurians, you just need to look for developers. One of the best comments in HN in a long time, deserves its own article. So true. A programmer should be able to learn any other new language quickly.
  - KirinDave 9y ago
    You know, I agree with this. But recently I was challenged by someone outside our industry that said, "Well why do you all give javascript's ecosystem such a hard time for cycling frameworks every 2 years or so?" I don't have an answer. It feels different to me, though. And to me learning a new thing is just part of the job. But many engineers I talk to act like it's something you're forced into, not a thing you should embrace. Because of opportunity costs, etc.
KirinDave 9y ago
> I think that had something to do with Clojure. Were you on the Level team at Capital One? If so, oh hai and I hope all is well. Given all the changes there, you may want to be careful. You gotta know this is against policy if it goes much further. I know because I got in trouble over violating said policy once... If not: no. You're wrong. Headcount issues were largely unrelated to Clojure. Also, please stop pretending your best guess is some sort of calculus over complex corporate politics. Staffing as a small startup bought by a big company is always a problem. Doubly so when you're on the leading edge of a corporate introduction into a new (and in many ways more fiercely competitive) labor market. > can you find to work on the project? The bank would be better off by sticking to Java/Python/C#/etc. I had no problem recrutin good clojure developers once I worked with the recruting team to help get the job postings in the right places. > Just because you can do it, doesn't mean that you should. The converse of this that is equally true: Just because you don't feel capable of doing it doesn't mean I should not. This is no idle speculation, we did it. We exited. We exited with a featherlight team, which turned a small and interesting project into a major opportunity for every employee.
- bhnmmhmd 9y ago
  > ... Also, please stop pretending your best guess is some sort of calculus over complex corporate politics... I think you should try to be more civil on HN. You can't just bash someone because of their guess. > The converse of this that is equally true: Just because you don't feel capable of doing it doesn't mean I should not. I don't want to get into some argument with someone who feels he is the only guy capable of achieving a failure.
  - KirinDave 9y ago
    > I think you should try to be more civil on HN. You can't just bash someone because of their guess. I asked politely, my friend. I'm suggesting your guess, leveled as an authoritative position, is misleading. Its you, taking my story away from me, asserting your narrative based strictly on preference. It's a narrative I disagree with, so I'm not inclined to let it slide. It's crass to do this. There are many, MANY other ways you could have decided to open this subject. You could have related to YOUR experience, you could have asked for explanation of how these problems are perceived or surmounted. You could have simply expressed skepticism about the team size. But you didn't. Here we are, on the wrong foot. > I don't want to get into some argument with someone who feels he is the only guy capable of achieving a failure. Then worry not! I am not: a guy, the only one capable of achieving, nor do I consider the product that made me a millionaire a failure.

bpicolo 9y ago

> How many Clojurists (is that a word?) can you find to work on the project? You don't need to look for Clojurians, you just need to look for developers. Getting to write in some slightly off-the-standard languages is a big draw for a lot of competent devs

flavio81 9y ago
> You don't need to look for Clojurians, you just need to look for developers. One of the best comments in HN in a long time, deserves its own article. So true. A programmer should be able to learn any other new language quickly.
- KirinDave 9y ago
  You know, I agree with this. But recently I was challenged by someone outside our industry that said, "Well why do you all give javascript's ecosystem such a hard time for cycling frameworks every 2 years or so?" I don't have an answer. It feels different to me, though. And to me learning a new thing is just part of the job. But many engineers I talk to act like it's something you're forced into, not a thing you should embrace. Because of opportunity costs, etc.

KirinDave 9y ago

> I think that had something to do with Clojure. Were you on the Level team at Capital One? If so, oh hai and I hope all is well. Given all the changes there, you may want to be careful. You gotta know this is against policy if it goes much further. I know because I got in trouble over violating said policy once... If not: no. You're wrong. Headcount issues were largely unrelated to Clojure. Also, please stop pretending your best guess is some sort of calculus over complex corporate politics. Staffing as a small startup bought by a big company is always a problem. Doubly so when you're on the leading edge of a corporate introduction into a new (and in many ways more fiercely competitive) labor market. > can you find to work on the project? The bank would be better off by sticking to Java/Python/C#/etc. I had no problem recrutin good clojure developers once I worked with the recruting team to help get the job postings in the right places. > Just because you can do it, doesn't mean that you should. The converse of this that is equally true: Just because you don't feel capable of doing it doesn't mean I should not. This is no idle speculation, we did it. We exited. We exited with a featherlight team, which turned a small and interesting project into a major opportunity for every employee.

bhnmmhmd 9y ago
> ... Also, please stop pretending your best guess is some sort of calculus over complex corporate politics... I think you should try to be more civil on HN. You can't just bash someone because of their guess. > The converse of this that is equally true: Just because you don't feel capable of doing it doesn't mean I should not. I don't want to get into some argument with someone who feels he is the only guy capable of achieving a failure.
- KirinDave 9y ago
  > I think you should try to be more civil on HN. You can't just bash someone because of their guess. I asked politely, my friend. I'm suggesting your guess, leveled as an authoritative position, is misleading. Its you, taking my story away from me, asserting your narrative based strictly on preference. It's a narrative I disagree with, so I'm not inclined to let it slide. It's crass to do this. There are many, MANY other ways you could have decided to open this subject. You could have related to YOUR experience, you could have asked for explanation of how these problems are perceived or surmounted. You could have simply expressed skepticism about the team size. But you didn't. Here we are, on the wrong foot. > I don't want to get into some argument with someone who feels he is the only guy capable of achieving a failure. Then worry not! I am not: a guy, the only one capable of achieving, nor do I consider the product that made me a millionaire a failure.