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Are we doing opinion threads now? Okay. I can do one too! I do like working with clojure. It's my favorite dynamically typed programming language by an easy ma

Are we doing opinion threads now? Okay. I can do one too! I do like working with clojure. It's my favorite dynamically typed programming language by an easy margin. It's basically everything that was a good idea in Python and Ruby brought under the unifying role of a Lisp syntax, with a good Java FFI. This makes it slightly harder to learn (it's very difficult to learn Clojure if you don't at least know Java). It has a very clean syntax for the most part. Parenthesis handling does need some automation (basically everyone copied paredit) but has the nice property that refactoring is a breeze and extremely predictable. Except for rogue agents like me and a few others, very few programmers go crazy with defmacro, which makes Clojure often a lot more orderly and understandable than lots of Common Lisp code. I've run a shop with 6 clojure developers collaborating with engineers in both mobile and web space, and in many places Clojure was such a delight that cljs began to creep into the web frontends. In many cases the mobile devs contributed API endpoint handlers to the codebase and they said in general it was easy to work with (although folks sometimes had problems with more complex map types; often because of leftover code from the Bad Old Days when :symbol-a and :symbol_a both got introduced into our codebase because of bugs in AWS bindings choking on -'s). Clojure, like many dynamic languages, is ultimately limited by its lack of a type system. At some point systems become challenging to refactor. To combat this, a lot of discipline about testing and builds needs to happen. I built a business around Clojure, sold it to a bank, and made lots of money and friends along the way (and just yesterday the bank announced they have decided to kill it because they don't like it, but that's got little to do with clojure and everything to do with <REDACTED>). We did stuff that VCs flat out claimed was impossible, to my face. I'm much more interested in other languages now, but that's not because I think Clojure is bad. It's because I think that my development as a software engineer requires I put Clojure down for a few years and work with other concepts.

bhnmmhmd 9y ago
>> ...the bank announced they have decided to kill it because they don't like it, but that's got little to do with Clojure... I think that had something to do with Clojure. The thing is, businesses usually follow best-practices and choosing a language like Clojure is certainly not a best-practice (even if developers had really good reasons to use it). For example, who maintains the code? How many Clojurists (is that a word?) can you find to work on the project? The bank would be better off by sticking to Java/Python/C#/etc. Just because you can do it, doesn't mean that you should. That's a bad habit I've seen from many developers (honestly, I understand the interest to learn more languages and use them at work, but that often results in short-sightedness when building a project).
- bpicolo 9y ago
  > How many Clojurists (is that a word?) can you find to work on the project? You don't need to look for Clojurians, you just need to look for developers. Getting to write in some slightly off-the-standard languages is a big draw for a lot of competent devs
  - flavio81 9y ago
    > You don't need to look for Clojurians, you just need to look for developers. One of the best comments in HN in a long time, deserves its own article. So true. A programmer should be able to learn any other new language quickly.
    - KirinDave 9y ago
      You know, I agree with this. But recently I was challenged by someone outside our industry that said, "Well why do you all give javascript's ecosystem such a hard time for cycling frameworks every 2 years or so?" I don't have an answer. It feels different to me, though. And to me learning a new thing is just part of the job. But many engineers I talk to act like it's something you're forced into, not a thing you should embrace. Because of opportunity costs, etc.
- KirinDave 9y ago
  > I think that had something to do with Clojure. Were you on the Level team at Capital One? If so, oh hai and I hope all is well. Given all the changes there, you may want to be careful. You gotta know this is against policy if it goes much further. I know because I got in trouble over violating said policy once... If not: no. You're wrong. Headcount issues were largely unrelated to Clojure. Also, please stop pretending your best guess is some sort of calculus over complex corporate politics. Staffing as a small startup bought by a big company is always a problem. Doubly so when you're on the leading edge of a corporate introduction into a new (and in many ways more fiercely competitive) labor market. > can you find to work on the project? The bank would be better off by sticking to Java/Python/C#/etc. I had no problem recrutin good clojure developers once I worked with the recruting team to help get the job postings in the right places. > Just because you can do it, doesn't mean that you should. The converse of this that is equally true: Just because you don't feel capable of doing it doesn't mean I should not. This is no idle speculation, we did it. We exited. We exited with a featherlight team, which turned a small and interesting project into a major opportunity for every employee.
hellofunk 9y ago
> it's very difficult to learn Clojure if you don't at least know Java I'm curious why you think this is. As I've noted elsewhere in this thread, I've never written a line of Java in my life, and have worked as a Clojure dev since 2014. I also never write any code that interoperates with Java. Seems to be a very common misconception that you must know Java to use Clojure.
- KirinDave 9y ago
  > I'm curious why you think this is. As I've noted elsewhere in this thread, I've never written a line of Java in my life, and have worked as a Clojure dev since 2014. I also never write any code that interoperates with Java. You're quite fortunate, but I was not. In fact, the reason I choose clojure at Level's primary language was for Java interop with the fintech world. In many cases if you want performant code that doesn't leak resources, you will need to appeal to at the very least java.util.concurrent. Clojure doesn't even really try to fill the gaps there. And even if you do, a working knowledge of the JVM, java compilation, and build/deploy tooling is quite helpful. There is only so much lein can abstract for you.
- LyndsySimon 9y ago
  The very first thing I needed to do in Clojure was to deal with JWTs, which required using its Java interop. Decoding error messages sent me digging into the Java library's documentation. It wasn't hard per se, and I didn't know Java, but I do see the disruption of my Clojure "flow" when I have to deal with Java interop as a big reason I'm not more of a proponent of the language.
  - hellofunk 9y ago
    I personally do not like the experience of interop in any language, or using FFIs. Perhaps that is why on any project I've had, I make sure to use high-level Clojure libraries that handle all the interop for me. So far, after nearly 4 years, that has not been a problem. But then again, all my projects have been raw Clojure from the start, and never projects where I had to deal with an existing Java code base or handle internal Java APIs at a company, etc. If you approach Clojure for a fresh project with the plan that it will just be a Clojure project, as I have, you will rarely if ever need to know a thing about Java. This is slightly less true for ClojureScript where some knowledge of JS can come in handy if you want to use JS libraries (which nearly all front-end developers eventually require). But even there, most needs are already wrapped up in Clojure libraries.
christophilus 9y ago
I don't know Java (I've avoided Java work as intentionally as I've avoided SharePoint work). Clojure was not hard at all for me to pick up.

bhnmmhmd 9y ago

>> ...the bank announced they have decided to kill it because they don't like it, but that's got little to do with Clojure... I think that had something to do with Clojure. The thing is, businesses usually follow best-practices and choosing a language like Clojure is certainly not a best-practice (even if developers had really good reasons to use it). For example, who maintains the code? How many Clojurists (is that a word?) can you find to work on the project? The bank would be better off by sticking to Java/Python/C#/etc. Just because you can do it, doesn't mean that you should. That's a bad habit I've seen from many developers (honestly, I understand the interest to learn more languages and use them at work, but that often results in short-sightedness when building a project).

bpicolo 9y ago
> How many Clojurists (is that a word?) can you find to work on the project? You don't need to look for Clojurians, you just need to look for developers. Getting to write in some slightly off-the-standard languages is a big draw for a lot of competent devs
- flavio81 9y ago
  > You don't need to look for Clojurians, you just need to look for developers. One of the best comments in HN in a long time, deserves its own article. So true. A programmer should be able to learn any other new language quickly.
  - KirinDave 9y ago
    You know, I agree with this. But recently I was challenged by someone outside our industry that said, "Well why do you all give javascript's ecosystem such a hard time for cycling frameworks every 2 years or so?" I don't have an answer. It feels different to me, though. And to me learning a new thing is just part of the job. But many engineers I talk to act like it's something you're forced into, not a thing you should embrace. Because of opportunity costs, etc.
KirinDave 9y ago
> I think that had something to do with Clojure. Were you on the Level team at Capital One? If so, oh hai and I hope all is well. Given all the changes there, you may want to be careful. You gotta know this is against policy if it goes much further. I know because I got in trouble over violating said policy once... If not: no. You're wrong. Headcount issues were largely unrelated to Clojure. Also, please stop pretending your best guess is some sort of calculus over complex corporate politics. Staffing as a small startup bought by a big company is always a problem. Doubly so when you're on the leading edge of a corporate introduction into a new (and in many ways more fiercely competitive) labor market. > can you find to work on the project? The bank would be better off by sticking to Java/Python/C#/etc. I had no problem recrutin good clojure developers once I worked with the recruting team to help get the job postings in the right places. > Just because you can do it, doesn't mean that you should. The converse of this that is equally true: Just because you don't feel capable of doing it doesn't mean I should not. This is no idle speculation, we did it. We exited. We exited with a featherlight team, which turned a small and interesting project into a major opportunity for every employee.

hellofunk 9y ago

> it's very difficult to learn Clojure if you don't at least know Java I'm curious why you think this is. As I've noted elsewhere in this thread, I've never written a line of Java in my life, and have worked as a Clojure dev since 2014. I also never write any code that interoperates with Java. Seems to be a very common misconception that you must know Java to use Clojure.

KirinDave 9y ago
> I'm curious why you think this is. As I've noted elsewhere in this thread, I've never written a line of Java in my life, and have worked as a Clojure dev since 2014. I also never write any code that interoperates with Java. You're quite fortunate, but I was not. In fact, the reason I choose clojure at Level's primary language was for Java interop with the fintech world. In many cases if you want performant code that doesn't leak resources, you will need to appeal to at the very least java.util.concurrent. Clojure doesn't even really try to fill the gaps there. And even if you do, a working knowledge of the JVM, java compilation, and build/deploy tooling is quite helpful. There is only so much lein can abstract for you.
LyndsySimon 9y ago
The very first thing I needed to do in Clojure was to deal with JWTs, which required using its Java interop. Decoding error messages sent me digging into the Java library's documentation. It wasn't hard per se, and I didn't know Java, but I do see the disruption of my Clojure "flow" when I have to deal with Java interop as a big reason I'm not more of a proponent of the language.
- hellofunk 9y ago
  I personally do not like the experience of interop in any language, or using FFIs. Perhaps that is why on any project I've had, I make sure to use high-level Clojure libraries that handle all the interop for me. So far, after nearly 4 years, that has not been a problem. But then again, all my projects have been raw Clojure from the start, and never projects where I had to deal with an existing Java code base or handle internal Java APIs at a company, etc. If you approach Clojure for a fresh project with the plan that it will just be a Clojure project, as I have, you will rarely if ever need to know a thing about Java. This is slightly less true for ClojureScript where some knowledge of JS can come in handy if you want to use JS libraries (which nearly all front-end developers eventually require). But even there, most needs are already wrapped up in Clojure libraries.

christophilus 9y ago

I don't know Java (I've avoided Java work as intentionally as I've avoided SharePoint work). Clojure was not hard at all for me to pick up.