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> I've seen Patreon kicking people off their platform for political reasons […] Have you? Are you thinking of Lauren Southern? Or maybe It's Going Down? The ex

> I've seen Patreon kicking people off their platform for political reasons […] Have you? Are you thinking of Lauren Southern? Or maybe It's Going Down? The explanation from Patreon is very reasonable: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmcK6GvgVPs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmcK6GvgVPs

vetinari 9y ago
Sorry, but "we don't need evidence, our imagination is enough" is not anywhere near "very reasonable". The free speech is not necessary for the speech you agree with. It is for the speech, you don't agree with. Just because Patreon guys are fans of Antifa does not mean, they should bring their ideology to the business.
- jerf 9y ago
  Fortunately, or perhaps unfortunately depending on your viewpoint, it won't matter for much longer. Once Patreon demonstrates the viability of the business, which I think it pretty much has, making a clone won't be that difficult. There's not a lot of technical moat here. (Having to deal with real money means it's certainly more than the HN-mythical "I could do that in a weekend!", but, still, it's definitely in the range of "hobby programmer in under a year with enough dedication" to get a fully functional site up and running to start.) Speaking as a decently-large Patreon user and one that has advocated for it to the point of probably sounding almost like a shill on HN despite not being connected to them other than as customer... I don't use Patreon to use Patreon qua Patreon, nor do I do use any of their site discovery mechanisms to discover anyone. YMMV. I support the artists. If and when the artists I follow move around, I will follow them; I've already got a couple of recurring Paypal payments for people who work that way. Ultimately Patreon's political preferences won't matter for much. It may superficially resemble the debate about Facebook/Google news filtering algorithms, but the situation is actually entirely different and the question isn't all that relevant in the long term. I think the fact that we're not talking about "free" here helps a lot.
- chrisoverzero 9y ago
  > Sorry, but "we don't need evidence, our imagination is enough" is not anywhere near "very reasonable". The video literally shows clips of behavior. The common theme of the video is “manifest observable behavior”. The video explains how actions, not speech, are what broke the terms of service. I really recommend you watch it. (Odd use of quotation marks – you directly quoted me, but completely made up what Patreon said.) > Just because the Patreon guys are fans of Antifa […] If they were such fans, I'm not sure they'd have removed IGD.
  - vetinari 9y ago
    > The video literally shows clips of behavior. I see you are new to the game of presenting video clips out of context and manipulating the audience. > The common theme of the video is “manifest observable behavior”. The video explains how actions, not speech, are what broke the terms of service. I really recommend you watch it. (Odd use of quotation marks – you directly quoted me, but completely made up what Patreon said.) That video was widely commented, for example here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_yIp7eQO1c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_yIp7eQO1c That odd quotation said what exactly Patreon did, not what they said they are doing.
    - cholantesh 9y ago
      >I see you are new to the game of presenting video clips out of context and manipulating the audience. This is a meaningless accusation without evidence.
    - azernik 9y ago
      I watched that response video. Basically, what he's saying is "these actions that endanger people in the immediate sense are justified". That standard is asking Patreon to make a political judgment. The creators in question were seen endangering others in their work. Period.
    - FireBeyond 9y ago
      > I see you are new to the game of presenting video clips out of context and manipulating the audience. Yeah, right. Lauren Southern, complaining about being removed: "I was in no way a part of Defend Europe. I was merely an observer". Lauren Southern, ON Defend Europe: "Go go go, get in front of them! You need to get in front, come around, block them and they'll have to stop", "And if the politicians won't stop them, then we will!" Yeah. "Observer". But tell us all about how our "context" is wrong, and Lauren was maligned.
- Sinidir 9y ago
  Did you even watch the video? lol.
- timecube 9y ago
  IGD is an antifa website...
- astrostl 9y ago
  I hadn't heard of her, or defend Europe, or this controversy, or anything. Watched the Patreon explanation video, which seemed pretty damn convincing, objective, and evidence-based to me.
wutbrodo 9y ago
Holy crap, Jack Conte founded Patreon?? I had no idea
tomcam 9y ago
Former (thanks to you) Lauren Southern fan. That video is illuminating.
- gasof 9y ago
  Illuminating as in... misleading? They stop NGO ships from illegally ferrying more migrants into Italy (they already have done that for 100k+ migrants), and instead force them to go back to Libya. They also save migrants if need be and then bring them to Libya. If the NGO's being blocked from illegally transferig migrants to Italy makes them take longer to get people off the boat onto the coast, perhaps they shouldn't have gone to Italy in the first place. There also wouldn't be nearly as many human traffickers in that area if the NGO's weren't helping them into Italy, so if Defend Europe is effective in deterring new migrants it might well end up saving lives, and it will definitely be for the living conditions of lower class EU citizens, as the migrants are not vetted and likely to be of an average IQ of 83 (the average in Libya in 2006), and thus compete for work with the EU lower class and press down wages, or they don't find work and become a drain on the social nets. Not to speak of the corrosive effects of immigration without proper integration, and the danger of the erosion of western values by displacement of white populations (who reproduce at sub-replacement rates) by Islamic, generally lower-IQ populations who are more interested in conquest and Sharia law than in women's rights or freedom of religion. If you find what I say offensive, I'm here to talk. Please use facts and not feelings, and if you want to accuse me of "hate speech"/badthink define those words first.

vetinari 9y ago

Sorry, but "we don't need evidence, our imagination is enough" is not anywhere near "very reasonable". The free speech is not necessary for the speech you agree with. It is for the speech, you don't agree with. Just because Patreon guys are fans of Antifa does not mean, they should bring their ideology to the business.

jerf 9y ago
Fortunately, or perhaps unfortunately depending on your viewpoint, it won't matter for much longer. Once Patreon demonstrates the viability of the business, which I think it pretty much has, making a clone won't be that difficult. There's not a lot of technical moat here. (Having to deal with real money means it's certainly more than the HN-mythical "I could do that in a weekend!", but, still, it's definitely in the range of "hobby programmer in under a year with enough dedication" to get a fully functional site up and running to start.) Speaking as a decently-large Patreon user and one that has advocated for it to the point of probably sounding almost like a shill on HN despite not being connected to them other than as customer... I don't use Patreon to use Patreon qua Patreon, nor do I do use any of their site discovery mechanisms to discover anyone. YMMV. I support the artists. If and when the artists I follow move around, I will follow them; I've already got a couple of recurring Paypal payments for people who work that way. Ultimately Patreon's political preferences won't matter for much. It may superficially resemble the debate about Facebook/Google news filtering algorithms, but the situation is actually entirely different and the question isn't all that relevant in the long term. I think the fact that we're not talking about "free" here helps a lot.
chrisoverzero 9y ago
> Sorry, but "we don't need evidence, our imagination is enough" is not anywhere near "very reasonable". The video literally shows clips of behavior. The common theme of the video is “manifest observable behavior”. The video explains how actions, not speech, are what broke the terms of service. I really recommend you watch it. (Odd use of quotation marks – you directly quoted me, but completely made up what Patreon said.) > Just because the Patreon guys are fans of Antifa […] If they were such fans, I'm not sure they'd have removed IGD.
- vetinari 9y ago
  > The video literally shows clips of behavior. I see you are new to the game of presenting video clips out of context and manipulating the audience. > The common theme of the video is “manifest observable behavior”. The video explains how actions, not speech, are what broke the terms of service. I really recommend you watch it. (Odd use of quotation marks – you directly quoted me, but completely made up what Patreon said.) That video was widely commented, for example here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_yIp7eQO1c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_yIp7eQO1c That odd quotation said what exactly Patreon did, not what they said they are doing.
  - cholantesh 9y ago
    >I see you are new to the game of presenting video clips out of context and manipulating the audience. This is a meaningless accusation without evidence.
  - azernik 9y ago
    I watched that response video. Basically, what he's saying is "these actions that endanger people in the immediate sense are justified". That standard is asking Patreon to make a political judgment. The creators in question were seen endangering others in their work. Period.
  - FireBeyond 9y ago
    > I see you are new to the game of presenting video clips out of context and manipulating the audience. Yeah, right. Lauren Southern, complaining about being removed: "I was in no way a part of Defend Europe. I was merely an observer". Lauren Southern, ON Defend Europe: "Go go go, get in front of them! You need to get in front, come around, block them and they'll have to stop", "And if the politicians won't stop them, then we will!" Yeah. "Observer". But tell us all about how our "context" is wrong, and Lauren was maligned.
Sinidir 9y ago
Did you even watch the video? lol.
timecube 9y ago
IGD is an antifa website...
astrostl 9y ago
I hadn't heard of her, or defend Europe, or this controversy, or anything. Watched the Patreon explanation video, which seemed pretty damn convincing, objective, and evidence-based to me.

wutbrodo 9y ago

Holy crap, Jack Conte founded Patreon?? I had no idea

tomcam 9y ago

Former (thanks to you) Lauren Southern fan. That video is illuminating.

gasof 9y ago
Illuminating as in... misleading? They stop NGO ships from illegally ferrying more migrants into Italy (they already have done that for 100k+ migrants), and instead force them to go back to Libya. They also save migrants if need be and then bring them to Libya. If the NGO's being blocked from illegally transferig migrants to Italy makes them take longer to get people off the boat onto the coast, perhaps they shouldn't have gone to Italy in the first place. There also wouldn't be nearly as many human traffickers in that area if the NGO's weren't helping them into Italy, so if Defend Europe is effective in deterring new migrants it might well end up saving lives, and it will definitely be for the living conditions of lower class EU citizens, as the migrants are not vetted and likely to be of an average IQ of 83 (the average in Libya in 2006), and thus compete for work with the EU lower class and press down wages, or they don't find work and become a drain on the social nets. Not to speak of the corrosive effects of immigration without proper integration, and the danger of the erosion of western values by displacement of white populations (who reproduce at sub-replacement rates) by Islamic, generally lower-IQ populations who are more interested in conquest and Sharia law than in women's rights or freedom of religion. If you find what I say offensive, I'm here to talk. Please use facts and not feelings, and if you want to accuse me of "hate speech"/badthink define those words first.