6 ms·

Agreed. And to add to it, we should switch to a system in which we have: * 100% mail-in paper ballots, like Oregon -- no long lines, no games about which dist

by sapote 9y ago

Agreed. And to add to it, we should switch to a system in which we have: * 100% mail-in paper ballots, like Oregon -- no long lines, no games about which districts get which machines, no polling place intimidation * Mandatory random-sample hand recounts (this has been shown to only need to be on the order of thousands of ballots out of millions for most races, given the statistical confidence you get with it)

dragonwriter 9y ago
Mail-in ballots offer far more robust intimidation and coercion opportunities than are available in polling places.
- sapote 9y ago
  I was expecting that response. The only solution, then, is to ban all mail in ballots. Right now California, for example, has optional mail-in voting. Wouldn't you expect that anyone who can be coerced to vote some way could be coerced whether the mail-in voting is optional or mandatory?
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    I'm not arguing that mail in ballots don't have benefits that warranted the increase in coercion risk, I'm just arguing that mail in ballots cannot be viewed as a mitigation of coercion risk compared to the way US in-person polling stations are run since they exacerbate, rather than mitigate, that risk.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
- nxsynonym 9y ago
  Care to expand? Don't see how that could be the case.
  - xienze 9y ago
    Your vote and name are linked together when you mail in your ballot. Ergo, I could figure out how you voted if I were an unscrupulous postal or poll worker. You wouldn't want your colleagues at Google knowing you voted for Trump now would you...?
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    With a mail-in ballot, it's possible for someone in a position to apply coercion/intimidation to compel you to complete, sign, and mail your ballot in their presence; ballot secrecy is a strong protection against intimidation/coercion, and mail-in ballots compromise that protection.
  - jdietrich 9y ago
    The privacy of the voting booth offers substantial protections to a voter. You might threaten or bribe me, but I can vote as I please, because you can't ever know how I actually voted. Many of these protections disappear if your ballot paper is delivered to your home and returned by post. Husbands can coerce their wives into registering for a postal ballot and then vote on their behalf. Religious leaders can coerce their followers into registering for a postal ballot and handing it over to a chosen candidate. A corrupt care home worker could register dozens of residents for postal voting, then sell their ballot papers. Migrants with a poor grasp of the English language can be tricked into giving up their ballot paper. Poor people can be offered cash for their ballot paper. Postal ballots can be stolen from postboxes and sorting offices. All of these frauds have taken place in the UK; local election results have been nullified on more than one occasion due to endemic fraud. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11560017/Postal-voting-fraud-is-easy-electoral-commissioner-says.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/1156001... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/4406575.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/4406575.stm http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-32428648 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-32428648 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/berkshire/7302809.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/berkshire/7302809.stm https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/164609/Electoral-fraud-review-final-report.pdf https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_fil...
- apardoe-MSFT 9y ago
  Coercion is a concern in communities where there's a power imbalance in the home. Consider, for example, an overbearing husband coercing his wife to vote in a particular manner, or just taking her ballot and voting it himself (and coercing her to sign the back of the envelope.) An option considered in one state (Utah?) was to allow mail-in voting, but the mailed ballot could be invalidated if you stopped into a polling place and voted. It adds some complexity but reduces the absolute chance of coercion.
  - oliwarner 9y ago
    In the current system people can intimidate you as much as they like but they can't follow you into a booth. They can't inspect your ballot after you've marked it. Only you know who you actually voted for. That's the point.
    - criddell 9y ago
      Unless, of course, you are asked to provide evidence of your vote with the camera you are likely carrying with you into the polling booth. I'd guess mail-in ballots increase participation at the expense of some coerced ballots. Surely the net outcome is positive. On top of that, it helps to remove the chance for the use of intimidation at the polling stations. I remember that being an issue last election.
      - ebalit 9y ago
        A picture is no evidence. You could take a picture of a ballot but then put another one in the ballot box.
        criddell 9y ago
        I would ask for video evidence. Somebody else mentioned that some areas have a system where if you show up in person, your mailed ballot is invalidated. That seems like a good safeguard. The bottom line for me is that I think the option of mailing ballots increases participation. There may be an increased number in coerced ballots as well, but I think the net result is postitive.
- criddell 9y ago
  I've never not voted due to intimidation or coercion. Long lines or inability to get to the polls on time has contributed to my not voting. Plus it's great to be able to sit with a ballot over the course of a night or two and really think about what you are going to choose. Being at the polls with people waiting behind you applies some pressure to pick the fastest option - ie choose all Democrats or all Republicans (the machine I was on had a shortcut button for that).
  - em3rgent0rdr 9y ago
    This is an excellent point. Also sometimes during an election, there are referendums or other races for positions that are overshadowed by the main race, e.g. Trump v Clinton, making it hard to make an informed decision on the spot like is possible when at home with access to a computer to research.
    - criddell 9y ago
      When I voted in Oregon, they mailed a newsprint book with the ballot that had a lot of text about each item with supporting and opposing groups contributing. You're right though that these days, a website would be a better way to do it. Last election I voted in Texas as people voted quickly. It seems like they either are only voting for one or two races or they are just pressing the button that selects all Republican (I live in a red area) candidates.
    - jfnixon 9y ago
      I've never heard of a district that didn't make ballots publicly available some time before the election. If you don't know what is on the ballot before going to vote, it is your own fault.
bsder 9y ago
> 100% mail-in paper ballots, like Oregon Except that mail-in ballots mean that some generally significant chunk of the electorate can't react to new news in a dynamic election. I don't like mail-in ballots. I do think that Election Day should be a holiday.
- sapote 9y ago
  That's actually a feature, not a bug -- 11th hour news stories are rarely accurate, seldom have sufficient context, etc.

by sapote 9y ago

dragonwriter 9y ago

Mail-in ballots offer far more robust intimidation and coercion opportunities than are available in polling places.

sapote 9y ago
I was expecting that response. The only solution, then, is to ban all mail in ballots. Right now California, for example, has optional mail-in voting. Wouldn't you expect that anyone who can be coerced to vote some way could be coerced whether the mail-in voting is optional or mandatory?
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  I'm not arguing that mail in ballots don't have benefits that warranted the increase in coercion risk, I'm just arguing that mail in ballots cannot be viewed as a mitigation of coercion risk compared to the way US in-person polling stations are run since they exacerbate, rather than mitigate, that risk.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
nxsynonym 9y ago
Care to expand? Don't see how that could be the case.
- xienze 9y ago
  Your vote and name are linked together when you mail in your ballot. Ergo, I could figure out how you voted if I were an unscrupulous postal or poll worker. You wouldn't want your colleagues at Google knowing you voted for Trump now would you...?
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  With a mail-in ballot, it's possible for someone in a position to apply coercion/intimidation to compel you to complete, sign, and mail your ballot in their presence; ballot secrecy is a strong protection against intimidation/coercion, and mail-in ballots compromise that protection.
- jdietrich 9y ago
  The privacy of the voting booth offers substantial protections to a voter. You might threaten or bribe me, but I can vote as I please, because you can't ever know how I actually voted. Many of these protections disappear if your ballot paper is delivered to your home and returned by post. Husbands can coerce their wives into registering for a postal ballot and then vote on their behalf. Religious leaders can coerce their followers into registering for a postal ballot and handing it over to a chosen candidate. A corrupt care home worker could register dozens of residents for postal voting, then sell their ballot papers. Migrants with a poor grasp of the English language can be tricked into giving up their ballot paper. Poor people can be offered cash for their ballot paper. Postal ballots can be stolen from postboxes and sorting offices. All of these frauds have taken place in the UK; local election results have been nullified on more than one occasion due to endemic fraud. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11560017/Postal-voting-fraud-is-easy-electoral-commissioner-says.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/1156001... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/4406575.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/4406575.stm http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-32428648 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-32428648 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/berkshire/7302809.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/berkshire/7302809.stm https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/164609/Electoral-fraud-review-final-report.pdf https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_fil...
apardoe-MSFT 9y ago
Coercion is a concern in communities where there's a power imbalance in the home. Consider, for example, an overbearing husband coercing his wife to vote in a particular manner, or just taking her ballot and voting it himself (and coercing her to sign the back of the envelope.) An option considered in one state (Utah?) was to allow mail-in voting, but the mailed ballot could be invalidated if you stopped into a polling place and voted. It adds some complexity but reduces the absolute chance of coercion.
- oliwarner 9y ago
  In the current system people can intimidate you as much as they like but they can't follow you into a booth. They can't inspect your ballot after you've marked it. Only you know who you actually voted for. That's the point.
  - criddell 9y ago
    Unless, of course, you are asked to provide evidence of your vote with the camera you are likely carrying with you into the polling booth. I'd guess mail-in ballots increase participation at the expense of some coerced ballots. Surely the net outcome is positive. On top of that, it helps to remove the chance for the use of intimidation at the polling stations. I remember that being an issue last election.
    - ebalit 9y ago
      A picture is no evidence. You could take a picture of a ballot but then put another one in the ballot box.
      - criddell 9y ago
        I would ask for video evidence. Somebody else mentioned that some areas have a system where if you show up in person, your mailed ballot is invalidated. That seems like a good safeguard. The bottom line for me is that I think the option of mailing ballots increases participation. There may be an increased number in coerced ballots as well, but I think the net result is postitive.
criddell 9y ago
I've never not voted due to intimidation or coercion. Long lines or inability to get to the polls on time has contributed to my not voting. Plus it's great to be able to sit with a ballot over the course of a night or two and really think about what you are going to choose. Being at the polls with people waiting behind you applies some pressure to pick the fastest option - ie choose all Democrats or all Republicans (the machine I was on had a shortcut button for that).
- em3rgent0rdr 9y ago
  This is an excellent point. Also sometimes during an election, there are referendums or other races for positions that are overshadowed by the main race, e.g. Trump v Clinton, making it hard to make an informed decision on the spot like is possible when at home with access to a computer to research.
  - criddell 9y ago
    When I voted in Oregon, they mailed a newsprint book with the ballot that had a lot of text about each item with supporting and opposing groups contributing. You're right though that these days, a website would be a better way to do it. Last election I voted in Texas as people voted quickly. It seems like they either are only voting for one or two races or they are just pressing the button that selects all Republican (I live in a red area) candidates.
  - jfnixon 9y ago
    I've never heard of a district that didn't make ballots publicly available some time before the election. If you don't know what is on the ballot before going to vote, it is your own fault.

bsder 9y ago

> 100% mail-in paper ballots, like Oregon Except that mail-in ballots mean that some generally significant chunk of the electorate can't react to new news in a dynamic election. I don't like mail-in ballots. I do think that Election Day should be a holiday.

sapote 9y ago
That's actually a feature, not a bug -- 11th hour news stories are rarely accurate, seldom have sufficient context, etc.