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> Most people I know see religion as something people slowly liberate themselves from Maybe others think that view of religion is closed-minded. :)

Chris2048 9y ago
"others" == religious people?
- whipoodle 9y ago
  Maybe, I couldn't really say. I'm not religious and I do find that view closed-minded myself.
  - Chris2048 9y ago
    Why? Isn't religion/faith "The belief is something unsubstantial and/or unproven"? edit: countdown until Dang detaches this tangent thread in 3, 2, ...
    - whipoodle 9y ago
      "Reason is itself a matter of faith. It is an act of faith to assert that our thoughts have any relation to reality at all. " Maybe reading some Chesterton would help.
      - Chris2048 9y ago
        Does it help? Isn't that a distortion of religion? I've read some Popper. This feels like the "god of the gaps" argument, that reduces god to pretty much anything. In reality, religion is far less abstract. The abstract axioms of reason aren't really the same as religious articles of faith. > It is an act of faith to assert that our thoughts have any relation to reality at all Depends what you mean by "reality". The closest institution wrt the nature of reality, is "science" which strives to discover its nature, and even implies by method that it is purely phenomenal. Compare/contrast with a church - which defends its doctrines rather than verify them.
    - jauzeyimam 9y ago
      At some level most things cannot be consistently proven though -- mathematics is premised in axioms that are not complete and consistent insofar as they cannot be proven by the systems of mathematics. They have to be taken as true, however, for the remaining systems of mathematics to be consistent. See Godel's Incompleteness Theorems: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel%27s_incompleteness_theorems https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel%27s_incompleteness_the... The larger point is that derogatory comments about belief systems only point to the speakers subjective inability to comprehend said system, nothing objective about the system itself.
      - Chris2048 9y ago
        What has the first paragraph got to do with this? There are things that cannot be proven, but what has that got to do with faith? Point me to an entirely abstract religion whose "faith" concerns only such mathematical concepts? > derogatory comments about belief systems only point to the speakers subjective inability to comprehend said system Why? Where do you make this point? Can I play that game too? "Failure to agree with my comments only point to listeners subjective inability to comprehend said comments." Also, I thought that was the definition of "faith" - Is that inherently "derogatory"?
      - ShabbosGoy 9y ago
        Are you familiar with Russell's teapot? The burden of proof lies upon the person making an assertion or claim.
        jauzeyimam 9y ago
        Heh in a roundabout way Russell's teapot came back to haunt him for the same reason as my earlier comment. His goal in attempting to create an internally consistent body of mathematics with Whitehead was proven impossible by Godel--Russel's teapot was mathematics as he could not meet the burden of proof at the axiomatic level, yet we still believe it to be true. This is not to say that mathematics is wrong, of course, just that since it is not internally consistent -- and since nothing is -- everything becomes an object of belief at some level. Therefore relying on notions like "the burden of proof lies upon the person making an assertion or claim" is turtles all the way down -- NOTHING is provable and EVERYTHING is a belief.
    - pygy_ 9y ago
      Religion is organized superstition built around mysticism.
dang 9y ago
Generic arguments about religion are off topic here. They're not interesting (because they're so generic) and they lead to horrible flamewars. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14920276 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14920276 and marked it off-topic.

Chris2048 9y ago

"others" == religious people?

whipoodle 9y ago
Maybe, I couldn't really say. I'm not religious and I do find that view closed-minded myself.
- Chris2048 9y ago
  Why? Isn't religion/faith "The belief is something unsubstantial and/or unproven"? edit: countdown until Dang detaches this tangent thread in 3, 2, ...
  - whipoodle 9y ago
    "Reason is itself a matter of faith. It is an act of faith to assert that our thoughts have any relation to reality at all. " Maybe reading some Chesterton would help.
    - Chris2048 9y ago
      Does it help? Isn't that a distortion of religion? I've read some Popper. This feels like the "god of the gaps" argument, that reduces god to pretty much anything. In reality, religion is far less abstract. The abstract axioms of reason aren't really the same as religious articles of faith. > It is an act of faith to assert that our thoughts have any relation to reality at all Depends what you mean by "reality". The closest institution wrt the nature of reality, is "science" which strives to discover its nature, and even implies by method that it is purely phenomenal. Compare/contrast with a church - which defends its doctrines rather than verify them.
  - jauzeyimam 9y ago
    At some level most things cannot be consistently proven though -- mathematics is premised in axioms that are not complete and consistent insofar as they cannot be proven by the systems of mathematics. They have to be taken as true, however, for the remaining systems of mathematics to be consistent. See Godel's Incompleteness Theorems: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel%27s_incompleteness_theorems https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel%27s_incompleteness_the... The larger point is that derogatory comments about belief systems only point to the speakers subjective inability to comprehend said system, nothing objective about the system itself.
    - Chris2048 9y ago
      What has the first paragraph got to do with this? There are things that cannot be proven, but what has that got to do with faith? Point me to an entirely abstract religion whose "faith" concerns only such mathematical concepts? > derogatory comments about belief systems only point to the speakers subjective inability to comprehend said system Why? Where do you make this point? Can I play that game too? "Failure to agree with my comments only point to listeners subjective inability to comprehend said comments." Also, I thought that was the definition of "faith" - Is that inherently "derogatory"?
    - ShabbosGoy 9y ago
      Are you familiar with Russell's teapot? The burden of proof lies upon the person making an assertion or claim.
      - jauzeyimam 9y ago
        Heh in a roundabout way Russell's teapot came back to haunt him for the same reason as my earlier comment. His goal in attempting to create an internally consistent body of mathematics with Whitehead was proven impossible by Godel--Russel's teapot was mathematics as he could not meet the burden of proof at the axiomatic level, yet we still believe it to be true. This is not to say that mathematics is wrong, of course, just that since it is not internally consistent -- and since nothing is -- everything becomes an object of belief at some level. Therefore relying on notions like "the burden of proof lies upon the person making an assertion or claim" is turtles all the way down -- NOTHING is provable and EVERYTHING is a belief.
  - pygy_ 9y ago
    Religion is organized superstition built around mysticism.

dang 9y ago

Generic arguments about religion are off topic here. They're not interesting (because they're so generic) and they lead to horrible flamewars. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14920276 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14920276 and marked it off-topic.