7 ms·

The only real problem I see is that comp. levels in Canada are not as high as the US while COL in most of the major cities is similar to NYC. As a (legal) immig

by pm90 9y ago

The only real problem I see is that comp. levels in Canada are not as high as the US while COL in most of the major cities is similar to NYC. As a (legal) immigrant to the US, while Canada definitely sounds very attractive, I don't want to take a major hit to my quality of life just to escape Trumpland...

hackermailman 9y ago
As an anecdote my friend's UVIC compsci grad class nobody stayed here and all took offers in Seattle instead because entry level salaries there are at least twice what you would make here. These US companies all directly recruit grads on campus too with large signing bonuses. It's the same story for nurses, if you have a nursing degree in Canada, US companies again directly recruit on campus and offer 3x the salary and signing bonuses, housing allowance benefits, ect.
samBergeron 9y ago
> I don't want to take a major hit to my quality of life just to escape Trumpland Major hit to your quality of life? I'm sorry, you may potentially have a little less money in your pocket, but you're trading direct cash for better social services (read healthcare and education). You make it sound like we're living in a 3rd world country.
- pm90 9y ago
  I certainly didn't mean for it to sound that way. I don't think that is what's going on though. If I received similar compensation and had more of my income taxed to provide social services... I would be 100% OK with that. The issue though is that Canadian employers haven't caught up with the fact that they need to match the compensation offered by US companies to attract the best talent. So the gross compensation itself is pretty low already, and probably gonna taxed more. Seen from that perspective, it doesn't seem like an attractive proposition financially.
- richardknop 9y ago
  > Major hit to your quality of life? I'm sorry, you may potentially have a little less money in your pocket, but you're trading direct cash for better social services (read healthcare and education). What if "little less money in your pocket" means 50% (or more) pay cut? For software engineers you are easily looking at a substantial reduction in salary. I think most people are willing to take a pay cut in exchange for better social services and free healthcare & education. But there is a breaking point where the comp. is too low for the extra services to make up the difference.
  - kogepathic 9y ago
    > I think most people are willing to take a pay cut in exchange for better social services and free healthcare & education. Postsecondary education is not free* in Canada. It's certainly cheaper than in the US, but nowhere near free. I paid around $10k/year for my B.Eng program (as a domestic student in the late 00's). Also healthcare in Canada, while covering regular doctors visits and any emergency hospitalisation, is not entirely free. You still have to pay for dental/optical (unless your employer offers additional insurance) and you still pay for prescriptions (which can add up). * maybe this is just your phrasing and you meant "better education and free healthcare"
    - richardknop 9y ago
      Yes, I meant better/cheaper education and free healthcare. I am not actually too familiar with education in Canada. Being from Eastern Europe my education has been completely free so I assumed it's the same in Canada as it is seen as a more socialist/liberal version of US (at least that's the impression I get about Canada from here). The argument expressed in my comment still makes sense though, actually it's even stronger since education is not free in Canada.
      - johan_larson 9y ago
        Twelve years of grade school and high school are free in Canada. University isn't free, but is significantly subsidized, and there are various grant programs for people who can't afford even the subsidized rates. The Ontario student aid program is called OSAP. You want an education in computer science at the University of Waterloo? If you're a Canadian or permanent resident, that's $7,278.48 per term for a total of roughly $58K plus living costs. https://uwaterloo.ca/finance/student-financial-services/tuition-fee-schedules/fee-schedule-canadian-and-permanent-resident-undergraduates-5 https://uwaterloo.ca/finance/student-financial-services/tuit...
jkaunisv1 9y ago
You're right about compensation, but cost of living in our major cities is nothing like NYC. I live in the capital and pay under $1000 for two bedrooms very close to downtown. You can get a swanky condo penthouse here for less than a one bedroom in Manhattan. Or split a nice house with two other people for $400-600 each. Friends in Toronto pay around $2000 for two bedrooms in the middle of downtown. Haven't checked in a while but fairly certain Montreal is somewhere in between. Those same friends were paying more than $3000 for less space in the far end of Brooklyn. Vancouver is crazy but sort of a special case especially when compared to nearby Seattle, but it's the only major city that is so close to an American metropolis. And that's leaving out the free healthcare and abundant green space which is a huge boost to my QoL.
- tenpies 9y ago
  I don't think the COL argument works any more. Toronto is at Brooklyn levels (if not higher). Montreal was better, but got worst when Toronto passed new legislation for rentals and rental properties. The "free" health insurance - which your taxes pay for - is great for some things but non-existent for others (e.g. routine oral care, routine optical care, physiotherapy required by something other than work, etc). Realistically, you need extended health insurance if you're not elderly, disabled, or on some sort of social care. Now the nice thing about taxes in Canada is that you won't be taxed at anywhere near the highest bracket. As a Canadian software developer you're looking at around 50% of the salary as your US counterparts [1] which means you'll be in one of the medium tax brackets. --- [1] https://i.imgur.com/huhGbLA.jpg https://i.imgur.com/huhGbLA.jpg
  - robotresearcher 9y ago
    Income taxes are progressive in both Canada and the US, so this tax bracket stuff is a red herring.
    - pm90 9y ago
      It isn't off the bat if the rates are very different. Which seems to be the case: 50% doesn't seem to be in the highest bracket in Canada, according to the OP.
smnrchrds 9y ago
Not everyone works in tech. A software developer can double or triple their salary by moving from Canada to SF, but a mechanical engineer can't.
- richardknop 9y ago
  Yes but given this discussion is on HN, there's a lot more software engineers than mechanical engineers. So you will hear this opinion a lot here and it makes sense from point of view of software engineers.
  - smnrchrds 9y ago
    I agree. Because of its demographics, HN can sometimes turn into a bit of an echo chamber. As a mechanical engineer, I wanted to offer an alternative poerspective in case anyone was wondering why wouldn't everyone just move to the US.
    - richardknop 9y ago
      Yes that's true. I think Canada would probably be an improvement in quality of life for many other professions but it's just not on a list of places a talented software engineer would want to be at.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

by pm90 9y ago

hackermailman 9y ago

As an anecdote my friend's UVIC compsci grad class nobody stayed here and all took offers in Seattle instead because entry level salaries there are at least twice what you would make here. These US companies all directly recruit grads on campus too with large signing bonuses. It's the same story for nurses, if you have a nursing degree in Canada, US companies again directly recruit on campus and offer 3x the salary and signing bonuses, housing allowance benefits, ect.

samBergeron 9y ago

> I don't want to take a major hit to my quality of life just to escape Trumpland Major hit to your quality of life? I'm sorry, you may potentially have a little less money in your pocket, but you're trading direct cash for better social services (read healthcare and education). You make it sound like we're living in a 3rd world country.

pm90 9y ago
I certainly didn't mean for it to sound that way. I don't think that is what's going on though. If I received similar compensation and had more of my income taxed to provide social services... I would be 100% OK with that. The issue though is that Canadian employers haven't caught up with the fact that they need to match the compensation offered by US companies to attract the best talent. So the gross compensation itself is pretty low already, and probably gonna taxed more. Seen from that perspective, it doesn't seem like an attractive proposition financially.
richardknop 9y ago
> Major hit to your quality of life? I'm sorry, you may potentially have a little less money in your pocket, but you're trading direct cash for better social services (read healthcare and education). What if "little less money in your pocket" means 50% (or more) pay cut? For software engineers you are easily looking at a substantial reduction in salary. I think most people are willing to take a pay cut in exchange for better social services and free healthcare & education. But there is a breaking point where the comp. is too low for the extra services to make up the difference.
- kogepathic 9y ago
  > I think most people are willing to take a pay cut in exchange for better social services and free healthcare & education. Postsecondary education is not free* in Canada. It's certainly cheaper than in the US, but nowhere near free. I paid around $10k/year for my B.Eng program (as a domestic student in the late 00's). Also healthcare in Canada, while covering regular doctors visits and any emergency hospitalisation, is not entirely free. You still have to pay for dental/optical (unless your employer offers additional insurance) and you still pay for prescriptions (which can add up). * maybe this is just your phrasing and you meant "better education and free healthcare"
  - richardknop 9y ago
    Yes, I meant better/cheaper education and free healthcare. I am not actually too familiar with education in Canada. Being from Eastern Europe my education has been completely free so I assumed it's the same in Canada as it is seen as a more socialist/liberal version of US (at least that's the impression I get about Canada from here). The argument expressed in my comment still makes sense though, actually it's even stronger since education is not free in Canada.
    - johan_larson 9y ago
      Twelve years of grade school and high school are free in Canada. University isn't free, but is significantly subsidized, and there are various grant programs for people who can't afford even the subsidized rates. The Ontario student aid program is called OSAP. You want an education in computer science at the University of Waterloo? If you're a Canadian or permanent resident, that's $7,278.48 per term for a total of roughly $58K plus living costs. https://uwaterloo.ca/finance/student-financial-services/tuition-fee-schedules/fee-schedule-canadian-and-permanent-resident-undergraduates-5 https://uwaterloo.ca/finance/student-financial-services/tuit...

jkaunisv1 9y ago

You're right about compensation, but cost of living in our major cities is nothing like NYC. I live in the capital and pay under $1000 for two bedrooms very close to downtown. You can get a swanky condo penthouse here for less than a one bedroom in Manhattan. Or split a nice house with two other people for $400-600 each. Friends in Toronto pay around $2000 for two bedrooms in the middle of downtown. Haven't checked in a while but fairly certain Montreal is somewhere in between. Those same friends were paying more than $3000 for less space in the far end of Brooklyn. Vancouver is crazy but sort of a special case especially when compared to nearby Seattle, but it's the only major city that is so close to an American metropolis. And that's leaving out the free healthcare and abundant green space which is a huge boost to my QoL.

tenpies 9y ago
I don't think the COL argument works any more. Toronto is at Brooklyn levels (if not higher). Montreal was better, but got worst when Toronto passed new legislation for rentals and rental properties. The "free" health insurance - which your taxes pay for - is great for some things but non-existent for others (e.g. routine oral care, routine optical care, physiotherapy required by something other than work, etc). Realistically, you need extended health insurance if you're not elderly, disabled, or on some sort of social care. Now the nice thing about taxes in Canada is that you won't be taxed at anywhere near the highest bracket. As a Canadian software developer you're looking at around 50% of the salary as your US counterparts [1] which means you'll be in one of the medium tax brackets. --- [1] https://i.imgur.com/huhGbLA.jpg https://i.imgur.com/huhGbLA.jpg
- robotresearcher 9y ago
  Income taxes are progressive in both Canada and the US, so this tax bracket stuff is a red herring.
  - pm90 9y ago
    It isn't off the bat if the rates are very different. Which seems to be the case: 50% doesn't seem to be in the highest bracket in Canada, according to the OP.

smnrchrds 9y ago

Not everyone works in tech. A software developer can double or triple their salary by moving from Canada to SF, but a mechanical engineer can't.

richardknop 9y ago
Yes but given this discussion is on HN, there's a lot more software engineers than mechanical engineers. So you will hear this opinion a lot here and it makes sense from point of view of software engineers.
- smnrchrds 9y ago
  I agree. Because of its demographics, HN can sometimes turn into a bit of an echo chamber. As a mechanical engineer, I wanted to offer an alternative poerspective in case anyone was wondering why wouldn't everyone just move to the US.
  - richardknop 9y ago
    Yes that's true. I think Canada would probably be an improvement in quality of life for many other professions but it's just not on a list of places a talented software engineer would want to be at.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]