4 ms·

With a warrant, oversight, and a lack of coordination with foreign governments.

tristor 9y ago
Frankly, I think this is an unrealistic expectation. The whole point of spying/intelligence is that you operate in foreign environments without their knowledge with the assumption they may have a hostile response if you're discovered. The point is to get the unvarnished truth, not the information filtered through a foreign government which has its own objectives. You also don't need a warrant for breaking into the systems of a non-citizen outside the borders of country initiating the hack. As long as the various intelligence agencies are not operating within the borders of their own countries, targeting their own citizens or sharing information in totality with foreign agencies as quid-pro-quo to achieve the same (Five Eyes), I have no moral issue with intelligence agencies doing what they're supposed to do.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- problems 9y ago
  > sharing information in totality with foreign agencies as quid-pro-quo to achieve the same (Five Eyes) But this is exactly how it works under the precise legal framework you've laid out. This is the problem. To attack allies internal enemies needs to be prohibited.
  - wbl 9y ago
    It doesn't work like that. If the US wants to conduct an operation in the UK the UK must agree and is subject to its own laws in doing so. They have now declassified the UK/USA agreement so you can see for yourself.
    - cr0sh 9y ago
      > They have now declassified the UK/USA agreement so you can see for yourself. You honestly believe that those "words on paper" have any kind of restrictive capacity on these agencies? If you really do, I've got a bridge to sell ya.
      - lern_too_spel 9y ago
        None of the leaks have said anything otherwise. It would be a bombshell story if they were violating the agreement and spying on each other.
- deleted 9y ago
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- balabaster 9y ago
  > As long as the various intelligence agencies are not operating within the borders of their own countries, targeting their own citizens or sharing information in totality with foreign agencies as quid-pro-quo to achieve the same (Five Eyes) You mean the U.S. wholesale spying on the British for the British to circumvent British privacy laws and the British doing the same for the U.S.? In a situation like this, there's little point in saying that intelligence agencies can't spy on Americans, because they're doing it anyway, they're just using a proxy to do so to bypass American laws.
  - lern_too_spel 9y ago
    There remains no evidence of this happening, despite countless leaks from the intelligence communities of all involved countries. The members of Five Eyes, formerly BRUSA, explicitly don't spy on each other according to the agreement. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-24715168 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-24715168
    - willstrafach 9y ago
      Everyone believes this myth now apparently, it is best not to bother pointing out the fact that there is no proof.
- sedachv 9y ago
  > Frankly, I think this is an unrealistic expectation. The whole point of spying/intelligence is that you operate in foreign environments without their knowledge with the assumption they may have a hostile response if you're discovered. Here is an article from yesterday's Hollywood Reporter where a "genealogist" who just happens to work for the US federal government and has a Top Secret security clearance and claims to use "a global network of public databases" proudly talks about stalking and doxing a local Los Angeles celebrity: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/features/angelyne-la-billboard-diva-30-years-1025678 http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/features/angelyne-la-billbo... Here is some old news about NSA analysts stalking spouses/girlfriends/women they were interested in: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2013/08/24/loveint-when-nsa-officers-use-their-spying-power-on-love-interests/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2013/08/24... CIA/NSA analysts now think that abusing their illegal domestic surveillance programs to stalk and dox people is a fun hobby.
tootie 9y ago
The CIA is targeting international suspects. Warrants aren't necessarily applicable.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

Frankly, I think this is an unrealistic expectation. The whole point of spying/intelligence is that you operate in foreign environments without their knowledge with the assumption they may have a hostile response if you're discovered. The point is to get the unvarnished truth, not the information filtered through a foreign government which has its own objectives. You also don't need a warrant for breaking into the systems of a non-citizen outside the borders of country initiating the hack. As long as the various intelligence agencies are not operating within the borders of their own countries, targeting their own citizens or sharing information in totality with foreign agencies as quid-pro-quo to achieve the same (Five Eyes), I have no moral issue with intelligence agencies doing what they're supposed to do.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
problems 9y ago
> sharing information in totality with foreign agencies as quid-pro-quo to achieve the same (Five Eyes) But this is exactly how it works under the precise legal framework you've laid out. This is the problem. To attack allies internal enemies needs to be prohibited.
- wbl 9y ago
  It doesn't work like that. If the US wants to conduct an operation in the UK the UK must agree and is subject to its own laws in doing so. They have now declassified the UK/USA agreement so you can see for yourself.
  - cr0sh 9y ago
    > They have now declassified the UK/USA agreement so you can see for yourself. You honestly believe that those "words on paper" have any kind of restrictive capacity on these agencies? If you really do, I've got a bridge to sell ya.
    - lern_too_spel 9y ago
      None of the leaks have said anything otherwise. It would be a bombshell story if they were violating the agreement and spying on each other.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
balabaster 9y ago
> As long as the various intelligence agencies are not operating within the borders of their own countries, targeting their own citizens or sharing information in totality with foreign agencies as quid-pro-quo to achieve the same (Five Eyes) You mean the U.S. wholesale spying on the British for the British to circumvent British privacy laws and the British doing the same for the U.S.? In a situation like this, there's little point in saying that intelligence agencies can't spy on Americans, because they're doing it anyway, they're just using a proxy to do so to bypass American laws.
- lern_too_spel 9y ago
  There remains no evidence of this happening, despite countless leaks from the intelligence communities of all involved countries. The members of Five Eyes, formerly BRUSA, explicitly don't spy on each other according to the agreement. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-24715168 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-24715168
  - willstrafach 9y ago
    Everyone believes this myth now apparently, it is best not to bother pointing out the fact that there is no proof.
sedachv 9y ago
> Frankly, I think this is an unrealistic expectation. The whole point of spying/intelligence is that you operate in foreign environments without their knowledge with the assumption they may have a hostile response if you're discovered. Here is an article from yesterday's Hollywood Reporter where a "genealogist" who just happens to work for the US federal government and has a Top Secret security clearance and claims to use "a global network of public databases" proudly talks about stalking and doxing a local Los Angeles celebrity: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/features/angelyne-la-billboard-diva-30-years-1025678 http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/features/angelyne-la-billbo... Here is some old news about NSA analysts stalking spouses/girlfriends/women they were interested in: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2013/08/24/loveint-when-nsa-officers-use-their-spying-power-on-love-interests/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2013/08/24... CIA/NSA analysts now think that abusing their illegal domestic surveillance programs to stalk and dox people is a fun hobby.

tootie 9y ago

The CIA is targeting international suspects. Warrants aren't necessarily applicable.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]