6 ms·

Yeah, I do get contacted by Japanese recruiters, and their comp in my field is pretty laughable by US standards. That said, the same applies to all of Europe as

by 0xbear 9y ago

Yeah, I do get contacted by Japanese recruiters, and their comp in my field is pretty laughable by US standards. That said, the same applies to all of Europe as well. People literally seem to be making one third of what they'd be making in the US if they were any good.

wolfgke 9y ago
The metric that you have to consider is salary - taxes - costs of living [including health insurance] + expected future revenues [in particular pensions] Can you provide me evidence that, say, Germany, is so much worse than the USA with respect to this metric?
- Pyxl101 9y ago
  It's also important to factor in the ability to move later. If I earn a small amount of money in a place with low cost of living, then I can't move to a high cost of living location later. If I earn a large amount in the US in a high cost of living area, then I can still live frugally and move to a low cost of living area later. Cost of living is fungible. If I buy a property in an expensive city, then I have to invest a lot of my money, but I can also recoup that later if I sell the property. In boom cities the property will appreciate and create more wealth. Other costs like food and transportation provide the opportunity to be significantly frugal if you desire to be. But with the high compensation available to top workers in tech, it's possible to not be frugal and still save a large amount.
  - Bartweiss 9y ago
    > If I earn a small amount of money in a place with low cost of living, then I can't move to a high cost of living location later. Having done this out of school, I found myself literally borrowing money for first/last/security. Not much money, and not for long, but that's of course because I had a signed contract before I settled on an apartment. Cheap living is pleasant, but it can leave you in a serious cash crunch should you try to move - especially as a young person.
- richardknop 9y ago
  Germany is much worse in this metric compared to UK. I am specifically talking about London. I get contacted by recruiters from Germany (and other EU countries) quite often and they could never match London contractor pay even remotely. Germany also has higher taxes and health care coverage is comparable in UK and Germany (both have national healthcare). I think that's a microcosm of US vs EU salary situation in software engineering. IT job market in London is very different from any place in Europe, I'm not sure why that is.
  - wolfgke 9y ago
    > I am specifically talking about London. The living costs in London are enormous. A fellow student has a highly payed analyst job at Goldman Sachs in London, but still does room sharing in a flat somewhere in London.
    - richardknop 9y ago
      I know living costs are "enormous". But if you make 3 times more money as you'd do in Berlin, it's still a much better deal. The point I was making even in top cities in Germany (Munich for example) where living costs are also enormous, salaries are not very competitive compared to SF/NY or London (this only applies to contracting, permanent salaries are low in London).
      - wst_ 9y ago
        So be fair and compare to the contractor salary in Tokyo as well. I can assure you that, despite being lower, salaries are quite close to London ones. A 3 time difference is a myth. Unless you are going to compare London engineers to Tokyo combini part time worker.
        richardknop 9y ago
        Yes I meant contractor salary is 3x more than permanent salary for a very senior software engineer in Germany for example. The idea behind this comparison is that you don't really have contractor market in Germany being so active as in London. In London contractor market is very active and large so you can go from contract to contract basically without gaps and function basically as if you had a perm job but with much higher salary. In Germany contracts are more sparse and I don't think it's easy to pull off a full time contracting there. The rates are also quite a bit lower (at least from emails I get from time to time about contracts in Netherlands & Germany) so there's that as well. And of course, Tokyo is much much worse in this respect. I know some people who live in Tokyo so I know that being a programmer there is pretty bad.
- literallycancer 9y ago
  Germany has severe wage compression going on for more than a decade. Companies are making more money every year, but instead of sharing that by increasing wages or sharing equity, they invest the profits (mostly abroad). The only reason it hasn't blown up yet is that the value of € is kept low by southern European countries that are struggling to stay afloat. Since the living costs remain relatively low, employees don't have to ask for more. Source: recruiters trying to convince me that €60k is what senior software engineers make in Germany. If you are wondering, that leaves you with €2900/month after taxes and insurance. The wonders of progressive income tax.
  - dmoy 9y ago
    60k Euro for a senior? Is that total liquid comp? That's like one fifth of what a senior makes at goofacesoftwhatever. I had no idea German salaries were so low, wow.
    - blawson 9y ago
      It's similar in Amsterdam. I remember being pretty well paid (granted this was 5 years ago) as a software engineer and my salary was around €60k. I will say that, for me, quality of life on that salary felt much better than you'd expect in absolute terms. But then rent and housing costs have gone up quite a bit in the last few years I understand.
    - wolfgke 9y ago
      When I look at descriptions about the living costs/housing prices in SF and its environment, I think that with, say, EUR 40k one has a better life in Germany (except the really expensive metropolitan areas in Germany as Munich, Stuttgart etc.) than with US$ 100k somewhere around SF.
      - dmoy 9y ago
        Right, but if a senior at amagoowhatever is making 350k usd, and a senior in Berlin/münchen is making 70k usd, it's a very, very different conversation. I meant literally five times as much, not a figure of speech...
- 0xbear 9y ago
  Taxes are much lower in the US too, even if you factor in the cost of health insurance. And if you are expecting "pensions", there's a bridge I'd like to sell.
6t6t6t6 9y ago
I don't know your field, but developers in Tokyo make (in USD) between 50k and 100k a year. This is a salary equiparable to what could be made in Europe and most parts of the US. It's even quite higher than what is paid in South Europe.

by 0xbear 9y ago

wolfgke 9y ago

The metric that you have to consider is salary - taxes - costs of living [including health insurance] + expected future revenues [in particular pensions] Can you provide me evidence that, say, Germany, is so much worse than the USA with respect to this metric?

Pyxl101 9y ago
It's also important to factor in the ability to move later. If I earn a small amount of money in a place with low cost of living, then I can't move to a high cost of living location later. If I earn a large amount in the US in a high cost of living area, then I can still live frugally and move to a low cost of living area later. Cost of living is fungible. If I buy a property in an expensive city, then I have to invest a lot of my money, but I can also recoup that later if I sell the property. In boom cities the property will appreciate and create more wealth. Other costs like food and transportation provide the opportunity to be significantly frugal if you desire to be. But with the high compensation available to top workers in tech, it's possible to not be frugal and still save a large amount.
- Bartweiss 9y ago
  > If I earn a small amount of money in a place with low cost of living, then I can't move to a high cost of living location later. Having done this out of school, I found myself literally borrowing money for first/last/security. Not much money, and not for long, but that's of course because I had a signed contract before I settled on an apartment. Cheap living is pleasant, but it can leave you in a serious cash crunch should you try to move - especially as a young person.
richardknop 9y ago
Germany is much worse in this metric compared to UK. I am specifically talking about London. I get contacted by recruiters from Germany (and other EU countries) quite often and they could never match London contractor pay even remotely. Germany also has higher taxes and health care coverage is comparable in UK and Germany (both have national healthcare). I think that's a microcosm of US vs EU salary situation in software engineering. IT job market in London is very different from any place in Europe, I'm not sure why that is.
- wolfgke 9y ago
  > I am specifically talking about London. The living costs in London are enormous. A fellow student has a highly payed analyst job at Goldman Sachs in London, but still does room sharing in a flat somewhere in London.
  - richardknop 9y ago
    I know living costs are "enormous". But if you make 3 times more money as you'd do in Berlin, it's still a much better deal. The point I was making even in top cities in Germany (Munich for example) where living costs are also enormous, salaries are not very competitive compared to SF/NY or London (this only applies to contracting, permanent salaries are low in London).
    - wst_ 9y ago
      So be fair and compare to the contractor salary in Tokyo as well. I can assure you that, despite being lower, salaries are quite close to London ones. A 3 time difference is a myth. Unless you are going to compare London engineers to Tokyo combini part time worker.
      - richardknop 9y ago
        Yes I meant contractor salary is 3x more than permanent salary for a very senior software engineer in Germany for example. The idea behind this comparison is that you don't really have contractor market in Germany being so active as in London. In London contractor market is very active and large so you can go from contract to contract basically without gaps and function basically as if you had a perm job but with much higher salary. In Germany contracts are more sparse and I don't think it's easy to pull off a full time contracting there. The rates are also quite a bit lower (at least from emails I get from time to time about contracts in Netherlands & Germany) so there's that as well. And of course, Tokyo is much much worse in this respect. I know some people who live in Tokyo so I know that being a programmer there is pretty bad.
literallycancer 9y ago
Germany has severe wage compression going on for more than a decade. Companies are making more money every year, but instead of sharing that by increasing wages or sharing equity, they invest the profits (mostly abroad). The only reason it hasn't blown up yet is that the value of € is kept low by southern European countries that are struggling to stay afloat. Since the living costs remain relatively low, employees don't have to ask for more. Source: recruiters trying to convince me that €60k is what senior software engineers make in Germany. If you are wondering, that leaves you with €2900/month after taxes and insurance. The wonders of progressive income tax.
- dmoy 9y ago
  60k Euro for a senior? Is that total liquid comp? That's like one fifth of what a senior makes at goofacesoftwhatever. I had no idea German salaries were so low, wow.
  - blawson 9y ago
    It's similar in Amsterdam. I remember being pretty well paid (granted this was 5 years ago) as a software engineer and my salary was around €60k. I will say that, for me, quality of life on that salary felt much better than you'd expect in absolute terms. But then rent and housing costs have gone up quite a bit in the last few years I understand.
  - wolfgke 9y ago
    When I look at descriptions about the living costs/housing prices in SF and its environment, I think that with, say, EUR 40k one has a better life in Germany (except the really expensive metropolitan areas in Germany as Munich, Stuttgart etc.) than with US$ 100k somewhere around SF.
    - dmoy 9y ago
      Right, but if a senior at amagoowhatever is making 350k usd, and a senior in Berlin/münchen is making 70k usd, it's a very, very different conversation. I meant literally five times as much, not a figure of speech...
0xbear 9y ago
Taxes are much lower in the US too, even if you factor in the cost of health insurance. And if you are expecting "pensions", there's a bridge I'd like to sell.

6t6t6t6 9y ago

I don't know your field, but developers in Tokyo make (in USD) between 50k and 100k a year. This is a salary equiparable to what could be made in Europe and most parts of the US. It's even quite higher than what is paid in South Europe.