7 ms·

Partly this is a recognition that Japan Inc. has historically awarded a blended compensation package which includes salary, benefits similar to most first-world

Partly this is a recognition that Japan Inc. has historically awarded a blended compensation package which includes salary, benefits similar to most first-world countries, and a host of non-pecuniary terms which are not broadly enjoyed across all W-2 employees in the US. ("Expectation of lifetime employment" is a biggie; there are substantially more subtle terms, too, like "We're going to take care of you, and we sincerely mean that, and you trust us to sincerely mean that. This will manifest itself in behaviors which American companies would describe as quixotic to irrational to outright disturbing[+].") The non-pecuniary terms have been weakening in recent years but salaries have not been increasing at anything approaching parity. The non-pecuniary terms are not small relative to the total notional compensation package. One reason that Japanese companies are having difficulty hiring folks is that their candidates have marked-to-market the non-pecuniary terms. There is a totally defensible reason to value Toyota's standard offer as of 1975 at being worth an integer multiple of the salary part of the package. It is very, very difficult to make the case that a traditionally managed Japanese company's non-pecuniary terms are presently worth $50~$100k per year given that one will be taking advantage of them in 2017 to 2062 as opposed to 1975 to 2020. [+] One of my first conversations with a boss at a traditionally managed Japanese company involved my expected timeline to get married and what the company's role in that process would be; my boss assumed that it would be sourcing the bride.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
PhasmaFelis 9y ago
> my boss assumed that it would be sourcing the bride. Yikes.
- cgarrigue 9y ago
  The image you have is probably close to how in some societies 2 families decide their children are betrothed to each other. The reality is closer to match making: some colleagues might introduce you to somebody who could be a match. Or maybe they will invite you to what is called a goukon, a group date where one of the male participants invite a few colleagues or friends of his who are single while his girlfriend invite the same number of female colleagues or friends of hers who are single.
  - mikekchar 9y ago
    Though to be fair, arranged marriages are pretty common in Japan. Several of my friends have arranged marriages and are as happy as any other couple I know. I suppose you can think of it like online dating, where there is also an expectation that both parties are looking to get married. It would not surprise me at all that a company would pay the fees for a match maker if being single was causing a valued employee emotional distress. Especially foreign workers don't have family to take care of this kind of thing (sometimes parents will intervene and contact a match maker if they feel that their child is taking too long to get married). I've never been a full time worker in Japan, except in my own consulting company (obviously -- otherwise I would still be there ;-) ). But with a 1 year renewable contract (the normal way to work if you are not a full time employee), I was surprised at the extent to which the company takes care of you. It's nice if you are like me where you want to concentrate on work, but I've known people who get frustrated by what they see as an intrusion on their personal affairs. When I was working at the high school where I taught English, several times I had conversations with the vice principal who felt that me being single past the age of 40 was a problem. He even sent me to talk to the nurse so that she could explain how Japanese relationships work and impress upon me the importance of taking things seriously. And... well... I listened. And they were right. I got married to a Japanese woman who I was dating (not the nurse ;-) ). Not only has it made my life dramatically happier, but it's helped my job incredibly (even though I'm consulting IT related stuff instead of teaching English ;-) ). But it's kind of beyond weird have that kind of intervention at work...
    - toomuchtodo 9y ago
      I can appreciate that having work intervene is weird, but that's the culture apparently. Studies have shown having a partner increases wages and helps you live longer. And the Japanese live the longest. Strange coincidence.
      - SamReidHughes 9y ago
        They are outlived by Japanese-Americans though.
      - 9y ago
dcw303 9y ago
Wow. Choosing your wife for you? Who and where was this company?! My experience with a traditionally Japanese run megacorp/zaibatsu in the heart of Tokyo is much more like a traditional western company. The minutia of HR is very Japanese and hard to get your head around, but the broad strokes of salary/bonus/non monetary benefits (I had to look up what pecuniary means) is basically the same.
- ramchip 9y ago
  I don’t think “choosing” is the right word, it’s more like providing the opportunity to meet someone with drinking events, goukon etc. At least if his company is like the ones I’ve seen.
  - toomuchtodo 9y ago
    The thread is definitely making a mountain out of a mole hill. Its providing networking opportunities, not selecting an actual person to be married off.
    - srtjstjsj 9y ago
      And it's an invitation to a sexual harassment or discrimination lawsuit in a USA corporation.
      - toomuchtodo 9y ago
        The anecdote in question occurs in Japan.
  - BearGoesChirp 9y ago
    And added social pressure if one doesn't eventually move forward (this would be applied to anyone not marrying). Granted, you can somewhat see this in the US but on a much less official level. I've personally noticed it as I have aged but haven't looked into marrying or having children. Employees who have been around even longer than I have mentioned that I'll be making it harder to move upward, though no one will every officially put that on paper.
mc32 9y ago
Context is a bit important. My understanding (erroneous perh) About 30% of the workforce works at the larger companies -The Mitsubishis, Toyotas, etc. Those are the ones who used to typically hire before graduation and offered the "lifetime employment". Most of the workforce work for SMBs (<300 emps) --not the prototypical salaryman employer. Not all salarymen are averse to job hopping --though at low annual percentages, still the typical worker didn't work their whole life at one co. AFAIUI.
sho 9y ago
> my boss assumed that it would be sourcing the bride Are you sure you understood him correctly? That would be highly irregular, to say the least. More likely it was an offer to pay for a matching agency. Arranged marriages between specific people are pretty rare these days, and unheard of outside of family. Unless your boss literally adopted you, he would never take on that responsibility!
- patio11 9y ago
  I doubt he would phrase it the same way I did, but I am absolutely not materially misremembering the conversation in which he said, and this is a verbatim quote translated from Japanese, "[24 year old coworker], this is Patrick. He just joined, graduated from a good school in America, and has a bright future with the company. Have you ever considered an international marriage?"
  - sho 9y ago
    Oh I'm not doubting you. But that's slightly different. Putting in a good word for you and making introductions to eligible young co-workers isn't quite the same as "here's your bride!", which is what it sounded like. I can absolutely imagine a 50s-ish japanese boss saying exactly the contents of your quote.
    - srtjstjsj 9y ago
      "sourcing" in this context means "identifying and referring candidates" not making an official commitment.
      - TheCoelacanth 9y ago
        Exactly. If you hire a recruiter to source employees for you, they aren't going to come back and say "Here's your employee. Hope things work out for you." they are going to say "Here's someone who seems like a good fit. Do you want to interview them?".
raleighm 9y ago
>> sourcing the bride To be clear, this is not at all normal in Japan either (at least not in Tokyo or Osaka or anywhere other than very small companies with septuagenarian managers). No one prices matchmaking services into compensation considerations. Agree generally with the rest.
- jsemrau 9y ago
  "Sourcing" might be a bit string, but there are company organised outings for match making
akg_67 9y ago
I actually know several instances of how company expects employees to sacrifice everything for the wellbeing of company and how company takes care of employees for life. One example, during 2008 crisis, the company my friend was working for 20+ years already, was in trouble and didn't pay employees for almost a year. My friend continued to work for the company despite it being bankrupt and him not getting paid for so long. Once company turnaround completed and came out of bankruptcy, owners not only made unpaid employees whole but has done much more for the employees that stuck around during bad times. The loyalty runs both ways.
- Sholmesy 9y ago
  Nice anecdote, and I'm glad your friend was made whole (and then some), but this is crazy. I wonder how many times the same scenario has played out, and the company continued to spiral into bankruptcy. Separating emotion from $$$ is important for this exact reason. He owes the company nothing. Maybe I'm being overly cynical though...
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- new299 9y ago
  I find all these anecdotes interesting, but I'm not sure how much I can extrapolate from them. I've worked in Japan, and seen the inside of a few Japanese companies. I've seen some weird stuff. I've worked in other countries too and I saw some pretty weird stuff in those companies too. Thing is, I think there's a tendency too attribute weird things that happen in Japan to "Japanese culture" where-as sometimes it's really just a weird thing that happened... I think that's less of a case perhaps in other countries, where you have a better understanding of the baseline culture. I'd love to see more studies/data on what the average experience is like.
- dugditches 9y ago
  I knew people with 25+ years just gone after 2008 dip. Most people can't afford to be 'loyal'(especially for a year~) and have bills to pay/children to feed. I've been to several factories/shops, and that 'loyalty' is quickly eroding. As worker wages stagnate while Management's increase. Management being under the squeeze of following Gov't Regulations and Outsourcing. So both sides are under this toxic stress.
BearGoesChirp 9y ago
>[+] One of my first conversations with a boss at a traditionally managed Japanese company involved my expected timeline to get married and what the company's role in that process would be; my boss assumed that it would be sourcing the bride. This was the example I was thinking of when reading the first part of your message. I'm glad you said it because I feared it would've been seen as an exaggeration if I added it as an example I've heard of. So to anyone who is reading about this and doesn't trust a single anonymous source, let this second anonymous source add on that I've read about the same behavior, and even more disturbing behavior happening to unmarried female employees (where do you think they source the brides from?). That said, I've heard about these cases at a few companies. I do not have sufficient evidence to generalize beyond that, only to point out that it does happen (and is tolerated by the legal system, no chance of that in the US), not the rate at which it happens nor if it is a fair generalization of Japanese companies in general.
- nihonde 9y ago
  Not to trivialize real gender prejudice, but there is no shortage of Japanese women who are in a dire search for a convenient marriage to a busy man who can give her children, financial support, and otherwise leave her alone. Even among my friends, whom I consider to be highly intelligent and evolved people, this is a perfectly normal aspiration.
  - magic_beans 9y ago
    Is this a cultural thing? Do women in Japan not aspire to fall in love?
    - Micrococonut 9y ago
      It is my understanding that "love" (the Western standard of Romantic love) isn't as important as building a stable relationship piece by piece in non-Western cultures.
      - fatjokes 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

PhasmaFelis 9y ago

> my boss assumed that it would be sourcing the bride. Yikes.

cgarrigue 9y ago
The image you have is probably close to how in some societies 2 families decide their children are betrothed to each other. The reality is closer to match making: some colleagues might introduce you to somebody who could be a match. Or maybe they will invite you to what is called a goukon, a group date where one of the male participants invite a few colleagues or friends of his who are single while his girlfriend invite the same number of female colleagues or friends of hers who are single.
- mikekchar 9y ago
  Though to be fair, arranged marriages are pretty common in Japan. Several of my friends have arranged marriages and are as happy as any other couple I know. I suppose you can think of it like online dating, where there is also an expectation that both parties are looking to get married. It would not surprise me at all that a company would pay the fees for a match maker if being single was causing a valued employee emotional distress. Especially foreign workers don't have family to take care of this kind of thing (sometimes parents will intervene and contact a match maker if they feel that their child is taking too long to get married). I've never been a full time worker in Japan, except in my own consulting company (obviously -- otherwise I would still be there ;-) ). But with a 1 year renewable contract (the normal way to work if you are not a full time employee), I was surprised at the extent to which the company takes care of you. It's nice if you are like me where you want to concentrate on work, but I've known people who get frustrated by what they see as an intrusion on their personal affairs. When I was working at the high school where I taught English, several times I had conversations with the vice principal who felt that me being single past the age of 40 was a problem. He even sent me to talk to the nurse so that she could explain how Japanese relationships work and impress upon me the importance of taking things seriously. And... well... I listened. And they were right. I got married to a Japanese woman who I was dating (not the nurse ;-) ). Not only has it made my life dramatically happier, but it's helped my job incredibly (even though I'm consulting IT related stuff instead of teaching English ;-) ). But it's kind of beyond weird have that kind of intervention at work...
  - toomuchtodo 9y ago
    I can appreciate that having work intervene is weird, but that's the culture apparently. Studies have shown having a partner increases wages and helps you live longer. And the Japanese live the longest. Strange coincidence.
    - SamReidHughes 9y ago
      They are outlived by Japanese-Americans though.
    - 9y ago

dcw303 9y ago

Wow. Choosing your wife for you? Who and where was this company?! My experience with a traditionally Japanese run megacorp/zaibatsu in the heart of Tokyo is much more like a traditional western company. The minutia of HR is very Japanese and hard to get your head around, but the broad strokes of salary/bonus/non monetary benefits (I had to look up what pecuniary means) is basically the same.

ramchip 9y ago
I don’t think “choosing” is the right word, it’s more like providing the opportunity to meet someone with drinking events, goukon etc. At least if his company is like the ones I’ve seen.
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  The thread is definitely making a mountain out of a mole hill. Its providing networking opportunities, not selecting an actual person to be married off.
  - srtjstjsj 9y ago
    And it's an invitation to a sexual harassment or discrimination lawsuit in a USA corporation.
    - toomuchtodo 9y ago
      The anecdote in question occurs in Japan.
- BearGoesChirp 9y ago
  And added social pressure if one doesn't eventually move forward (this would be applied to anyone not marrying). Granted, you can somewhat see this in the US but on a much less official level. I've personally noticed it as I have aged but haven't looked into marrying or having children. Employees who have been around even longer than I have mentioned that I'll be making it harder to move upward, though no one will every officially put that on paper.

mc32 9y ago

Context is a bit important. My understanding (erroneous perh) About 30% of the workforce works at the larger companies -The Mitsubishis, Toyotas, etc. Those are the ones who used to typically hire before graduation and offered the "lifetime employment". Most of the workforce work for SMBs (<300 emps) --not the prototypical salaryman employer. Not all salarymen are averse to job hopping --though at low annual percentages, still the typical worker didn't work their whole life at one co. AFAIUI.

sho 9y ago

> my boss assumed that it would be sourcing the bride Are you sure you understood him correctly? That would be highly irregular, to say the least. More likely it was an offer to pay for a matching agency. Arranged marriages between specific people are pretty rare these days, and unheard of outside of family. Unless your boss literally adopted you, he would never take on that responsibility!

patio11 9y ago
I doubt he would phrase it the same way I did, but I am absolutely not materially misremembering the conversation in which he said, and this is a verbatim quote translated from Japanese, "[24 year old coworker], this is Patrick. He just joined, graduated from a good school in America, and has a bright future with the company. Have you ever considered an international marriage?"
- sho 9y ago
  Oh I'm not doubting you. But that's slightly different. Putting in a good word for you and making introductions to eligible young co-workers isn't quite the same as "here's your bride!", which is what it sounded like. I can absolutely imagine a 50s-ish japanese boss saying exactly the contents of your quote.
  - srtjstjsj 9y ago
    "sourcing" in this context means "identifying and referring candidates" not making an official commitment.
    - TheCoelacanth 9y ago
      Exactly. If you hire a recruiter to source employees for you, they aren't going to come back and say "Here's your employee. Hope things work out for you." they are going to say "Here's someone who seems like a good fit. Do you want to interview them?".

raleighm 9y ago

>> sourcing the bride To be clear, this is not at all normal in Japan either (at least not in Tokyo or Osaka or anywhere other than very small companies with septuagenarian managers). No one prices matchmaking services into compensation considerations. Agree generally with the rest.

jsemrau 9y ago
"Sourcing" might be a bit string, but there are company organised outings for match making

akg_67 9y ago

I actually know several instances of how company expects employees to sacrifice everything for the wellbeing of company and how company takes care of employees for life. One example, during 2008 crisis, the company my friend was working for 20+ years already, was in trouble and didn't pay employees for almost a year. My friend continued to work for the company despite it being bankrupt and him not getting paid for so long. Once company turnaround completed and came out of bankruptcy, owners not only made unpaid employees whole but has done much more for the employees that stuck around during bad times. The loyalty runs both ways.

Sholmesy 9y ago
Nice anecdote, and I'm glad your friend was made whole (and then some), but this is crazy. I wonder how many times the same scenario has played out, and the company continued to spiral into bankruptcy. Separating emotion from $$$ is important for this exact reason. He owes the company nothing. Maybe I'm being overly cynical though...
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
new299 9y ago
I find all these anecdotes interesting, but I'm not sure how much I can extrapolate from them. I've worked in Japan, and seen the inside of a few Japanese companies. I've seen some weird stuff. I've worked in other countries too and I saw some pretty weird stuff in those companies too. Thing is, I think there's a tendency too attribute weird things that happen in Japan to "Japanese culture" where-as sometimes it's really just a weird thing that happened... I think that's less of a case perhaps in other countries, where you have a better understanding of the baseline culture. I'd love to see more studies/data on what the average experience is like.
dugditches 9y ago
I knew people with 25+ years just gone after 2008 dip. Most people can't afford to be 'loyal'(especially for a year~) and have bills to pay/children to feed. I've been to several factories/shops, and that 'loyalty' is quickly eroding. As worker wages stagnate while Management's increase. Management being under the squeeze of following Gov't Regulations and Outsourcing. So both sides are under this toxic stress.

BearGoesChirp 9y ago

>[+] One of my first conversations with a boss at a traditionally managed Japanese company involved my expected timeline to get married and what the company's role in that process would be; my boss assumed that it would be sourcing the bride. This was the example I was thinking of when reading the first part of your message. I'm glad you said it because I feared it would've been seen as an exaggeration if I added it as an example I've heard of. So to anyone who is reading about this and doesn't trust a single anonymous source, let this second anonymous source add on that I've read about the same behavior, and even more disturbing behavior happening to unmarried female employees (where do you think they source the brides from?). That said, I've heard about these cases at a few companies. I do not have sufficient evidence to generalize beyond that, only to point out that it does happen (and is tolerated by the legal system, no chance of that in the US), not the rate at which it happens nor if it is a fair generalization of Japanese companies in general.

nihonde 9y ago
Not to trivialize real gender prejudice, but there is no shortage of Japanese women who are in a dire search for a convenient marriage to a busy man who can give her children, financial support, and otherwise leave her alone. Even among my friends, whom I consider to be highly intelligent and evolved people, this is a perfectly normal aspiration.
- magic_beans 9y ago
  Is this a cultural thing? Do women in Japan not aspire to fall in love?
  - Micrococonut 9y ago
    It is my understanding that "love" (the Western standard of Romantic love) isn't as important as building a stable relationship piece by piece in non-Western cultures.
    - fatjokes 9y ago