4 ms·

About 20% of the workforce in tech is women. Less than 20% of students who take the AP Computer Science test are female. [1] So whatever makes women uninteres

About 20% of the workforce in tech is women. Less than 20% of students who take the AP Computer Science test are female. [1] So whatever makes women uninterested in programming happens before college. Men are much more thing-oriented than women, who are more people-oriented. The size of the effect is "very large", larger than any other difference in personality [2]. Programming is obviously a thing-oriented activity. Anecdotally, this split seems to happen at a young age - little boys play with cars, little girls play house, etc. Anecdotally, kids are far more sexist than any adult I know. Try being a 5 year old boy who likes to play with dolls. (EDIT: maybe not 5 year old. I don't have kids of my own, I forget exactly when kids start thinking the other sex is gross, maybe a bit older) I don't know how to even begin to fix this, as far as I know children learn most of their culture from each other and older peers, not from their parents or teachers [3]. I'm willing to bet that most of the problem comes way upstream of the workplace. The tech industry can do as much hand-wringing as they want over sexism in the workplace, it's not gonna fix the fact that adolescent girls are choosing to not take the AP Comp Sci test. [1] https://thinkprogress.org/not-a-single-female-student-took-the-ap-computer-science-test-in-two-states-d54ca3475ee6 https://thinkprogress.org/not-a-single-female-student-took-t... [2] http://sci-hub.cc/10.1111/j.1751-9004.2010.00320.x http://sci-hub.cc/10.1111/j.1751-9004.2010.00320.x [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nurture_Assumption https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nurture_Assumption

abritinthebay 9y ago
I agree. I said basically that? The culture problem in tech is not the cause, it’s just the end symptom of many things - including what you’re taking about.
- greenshackle2 9y ago
  You said that: > The level of drop outs of women in tech due to this is very high. But if that were true I'd expect women would be underrepresented in tech compared to AP Comp Sci. As it is they are slightly over-represented. If you have clearer evidence on that point I'd like to see it. I've heard convincing anecdotes of women dropping out because of sexism but I find it hard to reconcile with the data.
  - abritinthebay 9y ago
    You're comparing different things - one is current levels of CompSci (small, limited, sample size - hell I wouldn't show up in CompSci numbers) which is also basically at an all time high. The other is a total size metric that won't show churn. I get what you're trying to show but the comparison doesn't follow.
- bentruyman 9y ago
  > it’s just the end symptom of many things I'm not disagreeing, but "systems" is the reason I've often heard in this discussion without ANY real hard data expanding on what these systems precisely are and how they aren't a reflection merely of, let's say, biology. All I see generally when referring to "systems" are anecdotes and high-level conclusions based purely on personal experiences. None of which helps further the discussion. If you can find these systems, prove them, I'll be right there with ya tearing them down.
  - abritinthebay 9y ago
    Well there are entire fields of science dedicated to this. It’s like asking someone to “prove philosophy”. It’s not quite the right question.
    - bentruyman 9y ago
      Then it should be easy to enumerate the issues, and offer some ideas for solutions. As someone who follows this issue quite closely, I've seen neither. This entire thread illustrates the confusion – and that there is absolutely no consensus that even an issue exists in the first place.
MartinCron 9y ago
So whatever makes women uninterested in programming happens before college I don't think that, by itself, lets industry off the hook completely. We still have to make a culture that isn't downright repulsive to half of the population.
logfromblammo 9y ago
My kids will be taking every AP test they can reasonably handle, including the Comp Sci AP, regardless of whether they are male or female, simply because tuition is crazy now, and only getting crazier. I want to retire someday, and I also want my kids to be free of student loan debt. So I guess all it takes to defeat sexism once and for all is massive financial stress upon the middle class. Way to go, everybody!

abritinthebay 9y ago

I agree. I said basically that? The culture problem in tech is not the cause, it’s just the end symptom of many things - including what you’re taking about.

greenshackle2 9y ago
You said that: > The level of drop outs of women in tech due to this is very high. But if that were true I'd expect women would be underrepresented in tech compared to AP Comp Sci. As it is they are slightly over-represented. If you have clearer evidence on that point I'd like to see it. I've heard convincing anecdotes of women dropping out because of sexism but I find it hard to reconcile with the data.
- abritinthebay 9y ago
  You're comparing different things - one is current levels of CompSci (small, limited, sample size - hell I wouldn't show up in CompSci numbers) which is also basically at an all time high. The other is a total size metric that won't show churn. I get what you're trying to show but the comparison doesn't follow.
bentruyman 9y ago
> it’s just the end symptom of many things I'm not disagreeing, but "systems" is the reason I've often heard in this discussion without ANY real hard data expanding on what these systems precisely are and how they aren't a reflection merely of, let's say, biology. All I see generally when referring to "systems" are anecdotes and high-level conclusions based purely on personal experiences. None of which helps further the discussion. If you can find these systems, prove them, I'll be right there with ya tearing them down.
- abritinthebay 9y ago
  Well there are entire fields of science dedicated to this. It’s like asking someone to “prove philosophy”. It’s not quite the right question.
  - bentruyman 9y ago
    Then it should be easy to enumerate the issues, and offer some ideas for solutions. As someone who follows this issue quite closely, I've seen neither. This entire thread illustrates the confusion – and that there is absolutely no consensus that even an issue exists in the first place.

MartinCron 9y ago

So whatever makes women uninterested in programming happens before college I don't think that, by itself, lets industry off the hook completely. We still have to make a culture that isn't downright repulsive to half of the population.

logfromblammo 9y ago

My kids will be taking every AP test they can reasonably handle, including the Comp Sci AP, regardless of whether they are male or female, simply because tuition is crazy now, and only getting crazier. I want to retire someday, and I also want my kids to be free of student loan debt. So I guess all it takes to defeat sexism once and for all is massive financial stress upon the middle class. Way to go, everybody!