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I don't see how it's "embarrassing" for this article to be on HN. It addresses your point exactly in the first few paragraphs: "These numbers do not show that

I don't see how it's "embarrassing" for this article to be on HN. It addresses your point exactly in the first few paragraphs: "These numbers do not show that the labour market is free of sex discrimination. However, they do suggest that the main problem today is not unequal pay for equal work, but whatever it is that leads women to be in lower-ranking jobs at lower-paying organisations."

johnfn 9y ago
That's not my point, though. My essential argument is that sexism creeps in when you say that women select lower-ranking jobs by default. I don't think that's actually true. I think it's more that society views the jobs women work as lower-ranking.
- hackinthebochs 9y ago
  But there's no reason to think that when you consider that jobs generally considered "women's work" require (relatively) less education, or aren't inherently dangerous or physically demanding. There is a glut of supply so the market value of those jobs drops. Consider nursing which is relatively high paying precisely because of the education requirements, specialization, and difficulty of the work. Wages are even rising now because of the shortage. Market forces explain the salary distributions much easier than sexism collectively driving down prices against market forces.
  - DanBC 9y ago
    > Consider nursing But even in nursing we see men being promoted faster than women. When we ask why there are so few women tech leaders, or women in tech, we're told it's a pipeline problem: not enough women in STEM education. But that's not the case for nursing. So why do men get promoted over women? Here are some numbers from England. I've picked midwifery and ambulance staff, because there's some contrast there. Midwives Payband Men Women Total Ratio men:women Band 5 11 2301 2312 0.00:1.00 Band 6 57 18294 18351 0.00:1.00 Band 7 36 4663 4699 0.01:0.99 Band 8a 2 183 185 0.01:0.99 Band 8b 1 31 32 0.03:0.97 Band 8c 2 15 17 0.12:0.88 Ambulance staff Payband men women total ratio men:women Band 4 2222 1479 3701 0.60:0.40 Band 5 5986 4072 10058 0.60:0.40 Band 6 3553 1889 5442 0.65:0.35 Band 7 610 202 812 0.75:0.25 Band 8a 85 25 110 0.77:0.23 Band 8b 49 10 59 0.83:0.17 Band 8c 14 1 15 0.93:0.07 Band 8d 14 1 15 0.93:0.07 http://content.digital.nhs.uk/article/2021/Website-Search?productid=23815 http://content.digital.nhs.uk/article/2021/Website-Search?pr...
    - hackinthebochs 9y ago
      >But that's not the case for nursing. So why do men get promoted over women? Hard to say as I know very little about these fields. Presumably people in these fields are promoted because they show leadership or managerial qualities of some sort. Is there a reason to expect leadership or managerial qualities, or the interest in positions with those responsibilities to be unequally distributed among the sexes? Maybe. The differences in assertiveness is one potential explanation. Also the differences in status-seeking behavior. I'm not saying these differences explain it, but they're potential causes that can't be ruled out from the data alone.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

johnfn 9y ago

That's not my point, though. My essential argument is that sexism creeps in when you say that women select lower-ranking jobs by default. I don't think that's actually true. I think it's more that society views the jobs women work as lower-ranking.

hackinthebochs 9y ago
But there's no reason to think that when you consider that jobs generally considered "women's work" require (relatively) less education, or aren't inherently dangerous or physically demanding. There is a glut of supply so the market value of those jobs drops. Consider nursing which is relatively high paying precisely because of the education requirements, specialization, and difficulty of the work. Wages are even rising now because of the shortage. Market forces explain the salary distributions much easier than sexism collectively driving down prices against market forces.
- DanBC 9y ago
  > Consider nursing But even in nursing we see men being promoted faster than women. When we ask why there are so few women tech leaders, or women in tech, we're told it's a pipeline problem: not enough women in STEM education. But that's not the case for nursing. So why do men get promoted over women? Here are some numbers from England. I've picked midwifery and ambulance staff, because there's some contrast there. Midwives Payband Men Women Total Ratio men:women Band 5 11 2301 2312 0.00:1.00 Band 6 57 18294 18351 0.00:1.00 Band 7 36 4663 4699 0.01:0.99 Band 8a 2 183 185 0.01:0.99 Band 8b 1 31 32 0.03:0.97 Band 8c 2 15 17 0.12:0.88 Ambulance staff Payband men women total ratio men:women Band 4 2222 1479 3701 0.60:0.40 Band 5 5986 4072 10058 0.60:0.40 Band 6 3553 1889 5442 0.65:0.35 Band 7 610 202 812 0.75:0.25 Band 8a 85 25 110 0.77:0.23 Band 8b 49 10 59 0.83:0.17 Band 8c 14 1 15 0.93:0.07 Band 8d 14 1 15 0.93:0.07 http://content.digital.nhs.uk/article/2021/Website-Search?productid=23815 http://content.digital.nhs.uk/article/2021/Website-Search?pr...
  - hackinthebochs 9y ago
    >But that's not the case for nursing. So why do men get promoted over women? Hard to say as I know very little about these fields. Presumably people in these fields are promoted because they show leadership or managerial qualities of some sort. Is there a reason to expect leadership or managerial qualities, or the interest in positions with those responsibilities to be unequally distributed among the sexes? Maybe. The differences in assertiveness is one potential explanation. Also the differences in status-seeking behavior. I'm not saying these differences explain it, but they're potential causes that can't be ruled out from the data alone.
deleted 9y ago
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