4 ms·

Oftentimes, it's because the company doesn't want to show their hand. But also it's because "compensation" is far more than "salary" - which seems to be what t

Oftentimes, it's because the company doesn't want to show their hand. But also it's because "compensation" is far more than "salary" - which seems to be what this question is really about. They say that the first to say a number is at the disadvantage. Yet nontransparency can be even worse in compensation negotiation. >"salary is only a small portion of compensation. Let’s say you and I both make $5000 a month ($60000 a year – make the math easy). But you have 2 weeks of vacation, and I have 4. But I took the lower-deductible insurance option, and you took the higher. Which one of us is bringing home more per month? Who cares! My individual desires and needs are, apparently, being met on my package, and yours are with yours." (https://antipaucity.com/2013/05/21/publicizing-compensation-why-not/#.WYIlxNMrLgo https://antipaucity.com/2013/05/21/publicizing-compensation-...) I've written about this a few times on my blog and on Quora. In short, "your" $90k and "my" $80k are different for more than just the money. Maybe I have more vacation, or better 401(k) contributions, or any of a number of other factors. It would be great if employers would list their vectors of compensation in their first offer to you (https://antipaucity.com/2013/03/25/what-to-offer-to-be-the-best-possible-employer-ever/#.WYIlydMrLgo https://antipaucity.com/2013/03/25/what-to-offer-to-be-the-b...) - but what I get offered, and what you get offered for the same position will probably be different: our experience is different, so our value to the company will be different.

codegeek 9y ago
I agree that compensation is more than just salary BUT that is the starting point. I don't want to play the "benefits" game until I know a minimum number that you are even willing to entertain. Remember, even benefits are seen differently by different people. When I was young, I could not care less about benefits as I just wanted as much cash as possible. As I got older, benefits like vacation days etc. started becoming more important. But again, before we even get to all this, tell me the damn range.
rch 9y ago
None of your example figures are in the top decile (U.S.), so it wouldn't be worth it for me to evaluate the other aspects of compensation. In this case, getting out front with a $60K-$90K range would save us both some time. Of course if your company's tech team lives for free in a seaside expat compound, or a ski-in/ski-out chalet, then definitely lead with that.
deathanatos 9y ago
You can post the benefits too! And those have the advantage that they're probably going to vary a lot less over the entire company — e.g., everyone is offered the health/dental/vision, whereas salary depends on things like skill, position. I just hate the conversation that always ensues with the recruiter; after refusing to name a number, "but we have great benefits, and options! Options!" Options that I am going to value at $0, recruiter. Especially when I haven't had 6 months of experience at your company yet to really see how things internal tick — or don't.
i_r7al 9y ago
As a fresh graduate, the most important factor is the cash. As one of the replies mentioned, when you get older you will look for benefits. So posting the range will save time for the company and the candidate. Several times I decline offers that took a lot of time and interview because their pay was no where I was expecting and it was not appropriate to ask at first. So I start looking on jobs that actually post their range to save my time.
oceanghost 9y ago
It's not just not wanting to show their hand-- they're trying to create an asymmetry and its stupid. I no longer answer questions about how much I'm currently making, I usually answer "It's negotiable" or "If you'll tell me your range I'll tell you mine."
RachelF 9y ago
Also, existing employees at the company will see what the new hires will be earning. This might be less than they are getting at the moment for the same job, leading to demands for increased pay.
closeparen 9y ago
Huh. I assume (perhaps naively) that all non-egregious benefits packages will make me equally happy. The only consideration is, how much rent can I pay? How nice of a place can I get, for how much commute time? And then maybe, does this salary-location pair give me any hope of owning a condo similar to that apartment, and if so, how many years will it take to save? I've never thought about compensation in any terms other than housing, because it seems like every tech job would meet all of my needs except (maybe) housing.

codegeek 9y ago

I agree that compensation is more than just salary BUT that is the starting point. I don't want to play the "benefits" game until I know a minimum number that you are even willing to entertain. Remember, even benefits are seen differently by different people. When I was young, I could not care less about benefits as I just wanted as much cash as possible. As I got older, benefits like vacation days etc. started becoming more important. But again, before we even get to all this, tell me the damn range.

rch 9y ago

None of your example figures are in the top decile (U.S.), so it wouldn't be worth it for me to evaluate the other aspects of compensation. In this case, getting out front with a $60K-$90K range would save us both some time. Of course if your company's tech team lives for free in a seaside expat compound, or a ski-in/ski-out chalet, then definitely lead with that.

deathanatos 9y ago

You can post the benefits too! And those have the advantage that they're probably going to vary a lot less over the entire company — e.g., everyone is offered the health/dental/vision, whereas salary depends on things like skill, position. I just hate the conversation that always ensues with the recruiter; after refusing to name a number, "but we have great benefits, and options! Options!" Options that I am going to value at $0, recruiter. Especially when I haven't had 6 months of experience at your company yet to really see how things internal tick — or don't.

i_r7al 9y ago

As a fresh graduate, the most important factor is the cash. As one of the replies mentioned, when you get older you will look for benefits. So posting the range will save time for the company and the candidate. Several times I decline offers that took a lot of time and interview because their pay was no where I was expecting and it was not appropriate to ask at first. So I start looking on jobs that actually post their range to save my time.

oceanghost 9y ago

It's not just not wanting to show their hand-- they're trying to create an asymmetry and its stupid. I no longer answer questions about how much I'm currently making, I usually answer "It's negotiable" or "If you'll tell me your range I'll tell you mine."

RachelF 9y ago

Also, existing employees at the company will see what the new hires will be earning. This might be less than they are getting at the moment for the same job, leading to demands for increased pay.

closeparen 9y ago

Huh. I assume (perhaps naively) that all non-egregious benefits packages will make me equally happy. The only consideration is, how much rent can I pay? How nice of a place can I get, for how much commute time? And then maybe, does this salary-location pair give me any hope of owning a condo similar to that apartment, and if so, how many years will it take to save? I've never thought about compensation in any terms other than housing, because it seems like every tech job would meet all of my needs except (maybe) housing.