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Does he have a day job? This always seems like an easy decision from 10 miles away, if the police/bailiff/whatever are threatening to take you to jail wrongly y

Does he have a day job? This always seems like an easy decision from 10 miles away, if the police/bailiff/whatever are threatening to take you to jail wrongly you hold your ground and get let out anyway, right? That works great when missing a day or more of work isn't going to end up with you getting fired, even if you did nothing wrong in the eyes of the law.

kakarot 9y ago
If you get fired for not handing over your personal information to the government after being wrongfully detained then, depending on your country, you have a potential lawsuit on your hands
- lotsofpulp 9y ago
  When it comes to employment, the law only matters if you can afford to forgo income from that particular employer, and if you can afford the lawyers. For many people, if they don't have another stream of income or support from family or friends, it's effectively useless to them.
  - kakarot 9y ago
    My integrity in the face of tyranny and the future of my country is worth more than my livelihood. Each and every time someone bends to the will of the police state like this, it makes them a little bit stronger.
    - pavel_lishin 9y ago
      It's easy to say. It's hard to do, especially when you have a family to support. I'm not saying you're wrong - we should push back against things like this - but not everyone's cut out to be a martyr, and some people aren't in a position to martyr only themselves.
      - dsfyu404ed 9y ago
        It depends. A software dev with a month of slush fund in the bank and a wife who can mostly manage the household is in a very good position to keep their mouth shut on principal, especially if the facts of the case are something the larger community can empathize with. People will fund a kickstarter to pay your rent while you're in jail if you're in jail for a good reason. Getting publicity is the hard part.
        pavel_lishin 9y ago
        Yup. I was in that position 18 months ago, and I would likely fight the law. But today, we have a rambunctious 17 month old, and while my wife could raise her single-handedly for an indefinite amount of time - single parents do, after all - it would be incredibly difficult and unfair to both her and my kid, and all the family members who would have to increasingly begin to pitch in. For starters, if I were facing a jail term of longer than about a month, she would likely have to move to a much cheaper, further apartment. A move isn't free, and a move isn't easy - neither is finding a new daycare, nor losing the hours in the day that get eaten up by the worse commute and having to drop off and pick up the child. Sorry if some of what I said above is obvious, but a lot of people on HN are single and unattached, and these ramifications may not come as easily to them.
    - rhizome 9y ago
      Do you have enough money saved to defend that integrity on the spot? Lawyer? How long would you be in jail if your bail was set at $500,000?
      - kakarot 9y ago
        Until I get released or go to court. "I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
    - cakedoggie 9y ago
      So when have you actually tested this, otherwise it is just meaningless words.
      - kakarot 9y ago
        I've had several encounters with police in which my rights or the rights of others were trampled upon, and I have held my ground in each of them. Take me to jail if you must. I have sat in jail. Making it just about me and my life is selfish. If refusing to relinquish my right not testify against myself causes me personal suffering, it is my duty as a free mind to accept this personal suffering in order to stave off an ever-encroaching police state and take part in the struggle to give my posterity a better world to live in.
- pavel_lishin 9y ago
  Potential lawsuits don't pay my rent next month.
  - kakarot 9y ago
    We all have our own priorities which influence the attachments we allow ourselves to have with the possessions and people around us, and how comfortable we require ourselves to be. It certainly complicates things when there are mouths to be fed, human or animal.
makecheck 9y ago
Even worse, somehow there's this mentality that "arrested = criminal" even though you can be innocent; some people could be fired simply for being in custody, whether or not any work was missed.
logfromblammo 9y ago
I am extremely stubborn, such that whenever someone threatens bad thing X unless I do Y, I dig in my heels and become the unmovable stone. Bad thing X rarely happens. Bad things still happen, just not the exact thing they were threatening. You have to figure that anyone who would threaten you in order to coerce you into doing something you don't want to do, will also lie about the consequences of you not doing it.
komali2 9y ago
Well, fair for many cases. I believe he was a software engineer though, and that being the case probably has the privilege of missing work with little repercussions. I understand where you're coming from though, the law is skewed heavily unfairly towards the rich. In either case though, I believe the repercussions for giving away too much information in this lawsuit could potentially outweigh the repercussions of lost time at work or being fired. If I remember correctly, these "you fucked with BigTelecom" lawsuits end up with comically huge fines/settlements/legal fees.
- snuxoll 9y ago
  Not all software engineers have the fortune to work for some startup or trendy employer that would be fine with you missing work for something like this. My employer is pretty awesome in many ways, and they've demonstrated to me over and over that they value having me there - but at the end of the day I work in corporate America and I have no doubt that missing an entire week off unscheduled would endanger my employment with them (my managers would fight for me, but HR gets the final word and policy is pretty clear). Now, in this case, you may very well be right that the potential ramifications may be even worse than losing your job in the long term - but people with families depending on them have the short term they have to think about too, there's a reason plea bargains are so common in the US even when you have a good case to defend against.
grecy 9y ago
> That works great when missing a day or more of work isn't going to end up with you getting fired, even if you did nothing wrong in the eyes of the law. Canadians are not scared of their employment in the same way Americas are. With Healthcare and a good social safety net, he would be OK if he lost his job, and would be able to draw on enough social assistance until he finds another. Obviously very far from ideal, though not nearly as dire as in the USA.

kakarot 9y ago

If you get fired for not handing over your personal information to the government after being wrongfully detained then, depending on your country, you have a potential lawsuit on your hands

lotsofpulp 9y ago
When it comes to employment, the law only matters if you can afford to forgo income from that particular employer, and if you can afford the lawyers. For many people, if they don't have another stream of income or support from family or friends, it's effectively useless to them.
- kakarot 9y ago
  My integrity in the face of tyranny and the future of my country is worth more than my livelihood. Each and every time someone bends to the will of the police state like this, it makes them a little bit stronger.
  - pavel_lishin 9y ago
    It's easy to say. It's hard to do, especially when you have a family to support. I'm not saying you're wrong - we should push back against things like this - but not everyone's cut out to be a martyr, and some people aren't in a position to martyr only themselves.
    - dsfyu404ed 9y ago
      It depends. A software dev with a month of slush fund in the bank and a wife who can mostly manage the household is in a very good position to keep their mouth shut on principal, especially if the facts of the case are something the larger community can empathize with. People will fund a kickstarter to pay your rent while you're in jail if you're in jail for a good reason. Getting publicity is the hard part.
      - pavel_lishin 9y ago
        Yup. I was in that position 18 months ago, and I would likely fight the law. But today, we have a rambunctious 17 month old, and while my wife could raise her single-handedly for an indefinite amount of time - single parents do, after all - it would be incredibly difficult and unfair to both her and my kid, and all the family members who would have to increasingly begin to pitch in. For starters, if I were facing a jail term of longer than about a month, she would likely have to move to a much cheaper, further apartment. A move isn't free, and a move isn't easy - neither is finding a new daycare, nor losing the hours in the day that get eaten up by the worse commute and having to drop off and pick up the child. Sorry if some of what I said above is obvious, but a lot of people on HN are single and unattached, and these ramifications may not come as easily to them.
  - rhizome 9y ago
    Do you have enough money saved to defend that integrity on the spot? Lawyer? How long would you be in jail if your bail was set at $500,000?
    - kakarot 9y ago
      Until I get released or go to court. "I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
  - cakedoggie 9y ago
    So when have you actually tested this, otherwise it is just meaningless words.
    - kakarot 9y ago
      I've had several encounters with police in which my rights or the rights of others were trampled upon, and I have held my ground in each of them. Take me to jail if you must. I have sat in jail. Making it just about me and my life is selfish. If refusing to relinquish my right not testify against myself causes me personal suffering, it is my duty as a free mind to accept this personal suffering in order to stave off an ever-encroaching police state and take part in the struggle to give my posterity a better world to live in.
pavel_lishin 9y ago
Potential lawsuits don't pay my rent next month.
- kakarot 9y ago
  We all have our own priorities which influence the attachments we allow ourselves to have with the possessions and people around us, and how comfortable we require ourselves to be. It certainly complicates things when there are mouths to be fed, human or animal.

makecheck 9y ago

Even worse, somehow there's this mentality that "arrested = criminal" even though you can be innocent; some people could be fired simply for being in custody, whether or not any work was missed.

logfromblammo 9y ago

I am extremely stubborn, such that whenever someone threatens bad thing X unless I do Y, I dig in my heels and become the unmovable stone. Bad thing X rarely happens. Bad things still happen, just not the exact thing they were threatening. You have to figure that anyone who would threaten you in order to coerce you into doing something you don't want to do, will also lie about the consequences of you not doing it.

komali2 9y ago

Well, fair for many cases. I believe he was a software engineer though, and that being the case probably has the privilege of missing work with little repercussions. I understand where you're coming from though, the law is skewed heavily unfairly towards the rich. In either case though, I believe the repercussions for giving away too much information in this lawsuit could potentially outweigh the repercussions of lost time at work or being fired. If I remember correctly, these "you fucked with BigTelecom" lawsuits end up with comically huge fines/settlements/legal fees.

snuxoll 9y ago
Not all software engineers have the fortune to work for some startup or trendy employer that would be fine with you missing work for something like this. My employer is pretty awesome in many ways, and they've demonstrated to me over and over that they value having me there - but at the end of the day I work in corporate America and I have no doubt that missing an entire week off unscheduled would endanger my employment with them (my managers would fight for me, but HR gets the final word and policy is pretty clear). Now, in this case, you may very well be right that the potential ramifications may be even worse than losing your job in the long term - but people with families depending on them have the short term they have to think about too, there's a reason plea bargains are so common in the US even when you have a good case to defend against.

grecy 9y ago

> That works great when missing a day or more of work isn't going to end up with you getting fired, even if you did nothing wrong in the eyes of the law. Canadians are not scared of their employment in the same way Americas are. With Healthcare and a good social safety net, he would be OK if he lost his job, and would be able to draw on enough social assistance until he finds another. Obviously very far from ideal, though not nearly as dire as in the USA.