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Anecdotal experience buying on Amazon recently: Bought a new induction cooking pan. A nice one at $90. Didn't really pay much attention to who was selling it,

by sxates 9y ago

Anecdotal experience buying on Amazon recently: Bought a new induction cooking pan. A nice one at $90. Didn't really pay much attention to who was selling it, just bought it like I do everything else from Amazon. It took about two weeks to arrive because it was from an independent seller, and was not 'Prime eligible'. When it arrived, I took it out of the box and was immediately disappointed. It was really heavy, and the handle was shaped and angled in a way that made it hard to maneuver such a heavy pan. It'd be really difficult to do the usual flip and toss motions when cooking things. I didn't want to spend $90 on a pan I would hate using, so I put it back in the box and requested a return. That was when I found out exactly what the independent seller's return policy was. 1) I have to pay for return shipping (USPS best price was $38), 2) I have to pay them for the original 'free' shipping as well (no idea how much that was), and 3) I also have to pay a 25% restocking fee for an item in perfect resell-able condition. So in returning my $90 pan I figured I wouldn't get more than ~$30 back. I decided between being out $90 and having a pan or being out $60 and having nothing, I might as well keep it. So I suppose that was a win for the seller - they successfully discouraged me from returning the item, which I'm sure would have cost them money. But it also discouraged me from buying anything on Amazon that isn't Prime, and it doesn't reflect well on Amazon that I had an experience completely contrary to their customer service values.

richthegeek 9y ago
Wow, I really am amazed how few consumer protections you seem to have! In the UK we're protected on two levels: firstly the "Distance Selling Regulation" means we have the right to cancel many contracts/purchases made not-in-person within 14 days of delivery. And secondly, if a good is faulty, not as described, or unfit for purpose then we have a right to a refund under those terms also. Probably because of these already strong rights, Amazon UK (and most retailers) go beyond that and simply offer a 30 day "no questions asked" return policy in most cases. I didn't realise until now how much I took it for granted!
- _Codemonkeyism 9y ago
  Similiar in Germany.
  - Tomte 9y ago
    Of course, the Directive is a EU Directive. Whether the UK will keep those protections is something we'll see.
- cfn 9y ago
  Be that as it may, I had a similar experience with an independent seller at Amazon UK. I bought a pan that arrived with a small defect and they told me I would have to pay the postage back (25 Euros on a £30 or £40 pan - I was buying from abroad). I also ended up keeping the pan and now avoid independent sellers as much as possible.
  - richthegeek 9y ago
    Interesting - I certainly would have raised that to support!
  - jorvi 9y ago
    Why not do a chargeback on your creditcard (or raise a PayPal claim)? The law is very clear, if an item is faulty or not as described the seller is on the hook for all costs. This includes return shipping and/or sending you a replacement. A lot of sellers will try to strong-arm you but if you just do the chargeback/claim they have no option but to eat the loss. Creditcard companies and PayPal thankfully nearly always back buyers, tilting the power balance back to the consumers' side :)
    - hak8or 9y ago
      In Europe, for some sad reason credit cards are very rarely used and many stores don't accept them. Not to mention, if you do a charge back against a store like Walmart or Amazon, you won't be able to shop there anymore because they will ban you.
      - jorvi 9y ago
        In day-to-day shopping creditcards are very rarely used, but I'm pretty confident that for internet purchases creditcards aren't that rare. And as far as being banned goes: of course you first raise the issue with Amazon. Amazon says its an independent seller, go deal with them. You try to work it out with the seller, he doesn't budge, you show him the law. Still doesn't budge, you raise it with Amazon again. If Amazon doesn't budge, tell them that you are lawfully entitled and will do a chargeback, and that they can deal with the independent seller acting illegally (and if they're smart they just chargeback the seller). If they would still ban you then, that will be one hell of a juicy court case.
- drstewart 9y ago
  Wow, only 30 days? That's very very low. REI and other stores here in the US offer up to a year no questions asked return policy. I didn't realize how great that was compared to the UK!
  - ashark 9y ago
    > Wow, only 30 days? That's very very low. REI and other stores here in the US offer up to a year no questions asked return policy. 30 minimum required by law. Not maximum.
  - gozur88 9y ago
    REI is unusual, and famously gets returns on things like clothing and tents that have been used for months.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > Wow, only 30 days? That's very very low. REI and other stores here in the US offer up to a year no questions asked return policy. REI is unusually customer-friendly, because it's a consuner cooperative. Most US stores do not offer anything like a year no-questions-asked return policy (30 days, many-questions-asked is more typical.)
- dsfyu404ed 9y ago
  Those "protections" come right back at you in your CoL. I'd rather purchase stuff without being able to return it than pay a price that includes my statistical risk of returning things.
- ryanwaggoner 9y ago
  the "Distance Selling Regulation" means we have the right to cancel many contracts/purchases made not-in-person within 14 days of delivery. First of all, the Consumer Contracts Directive replaced that in 2014, no? Second, how exactly would this have protected the buyer? Maybe no restocking fee and only difference between free and basic shipping? In EU, does seller HAVE to pay for return shipping? Third, you know that "protection" isn't free, right? You're paying for that in terms of higher prices and lost economic opportunities. Finally, the pro-EU, anti-US condescension laced with pity is so tiresome and ignorant. We get it, things work differently there. Some are better, some worse. It's hardly paradise. (For the record, I've lived in the US and the EU.)
  - kfriede 9y ago
    Not to mention, not all of the EU is the same. Want to return something in Germany? Forget about it. Buying from an independent seller on Amazon is similar to buying on eBay. You're taking the risk of not having the customer service that large corporations can afford. Plus, Amazon customer support will often help out with claims where the seller is in the wrong (e.g. item does not match description).
    - sdoering 9y ago
      I don't know in what Germany you are living. But with the former "Fernabsatzgesetz" (now integrated into our BGB) we have the right to return everything we order online within a period of two weeks. Never had a problem returning anything ordered online. Ok one should nonetheless read the terms before ordering.
    - morsch 9y ago
      Not to mention, not all of the EU is the same. No, that would be rather dull. But in terms of returning stuff you bought on the Internet, it pretty much is: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_Rights_Directive_2011 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_Rights_Directive_20... "The current varying lengths of the withdrawal periods both between the Member States and for distance and off-premises contracts cause legal uncertainty and compliance costs. The same withdrawal period should apply to all distance and off-premises contracts. In the case of service contracts, the withdrawal period should expire after 14 days from the conclusion of the contract. In the case of sales contracts, the withdrawal period should expire after 14 days from the day on which the consumer or a third party other than the carrier and indicated by the consumer, acquires physical possession of the goods."
- hsod 9y ago
  Sometimes I think Europe's chief export is incredulity :) > And secondly, if a good is faulty, not as described, or unfit for purpose then we have a right to a refund under those terms also. None of this applies here, OP simply wasn't happy with their purchase. Does it really make sense for the seller to have to pay out of pocket for round-trip shipping on a heavy iron pan because OP didn't bother reading the listing or looking at the pictures?
xyclos 9y ago
I don't know how long ago this was, but if it was within the last 30 days (I think) you can probably file an A-to-Z Guarantee claim and get an immediate Amazon gift card credit added to your account. I did this recently with an item I ordered. I paid extra for the non-prime eligible 2nd day shipping. It didn't arrive until after 6 days. I filed a claim, and without having to wait for the claim process, Amazon immediately gave me the option to close the claim and receive a gift card for the amount I paid without returning the item.
ReverseCold 9y ago
I had a similar experience, contacted Amazon support and they just refunded me.
Sleeep 9y ago
From what I hear from Amazon sellers if a buyer contacts Amazon directly in this case Amazon will (usually?) refund the buyer no matter what the seller's return policy is. Maybe the buyer has to have "Prime" though?
settsu 9y ago
I understand the disappointment and frustration here, but choosing to be out $90 for something that will never be used—vs. recouping some money and having the offending item gone—seems like a questionable decision.
- neo4sure 9y ago
  Please read carefully, it will never be used because it was not as advertised"
  - fnj 9y ago
    > it was not as advertised I read carefully, and did not see anything to suggest the item was not as advertised. I saw someone complain that they did not like various aspects. Absent an explicit money-back guarantee of satisfaction, I see no reason why the vendor should have to cater to every buyer's demand.
- threatofrain 9y ago
  I'd agree that $90 for a single item seems quite high to throw away without contention. My ballpark would be closer to $20-30, because it's not unusual for the fee to be over $10. But that's my own subjective feeling, and I imagine others put their range higher or lower based on factors like distance to UPS store or Amazon locker, or how much they logistically have on their plate.
dminor 9y ago
As you found from looking into the costs of return shipping, "free" shipping can actually cost a retailer quite a bit of their margin. They are attempting to remain price competitive by not pricing in the cost of returns. Amazon has a massive advantage here over small retailers because their shipping costs are much lower due to their scale. These sorts of shipping policies used to be the norm, until Amazon realized that people value free shipping more than an equivalent discount.
- gozur88 9y ago
  People value free shipping because shipping is a scam in a lot of cases. I used to work for a company that made logistics software. One of our customers was one of those cable channels that hawks merchandise around the clock. You would buy a ring (looks like a real diamond!), and when it arrived you realize "hey, this is just cheap costume jewelry" and send it back. They'd happily refund the price and express hopes you'd be happier with future items. And they didn't care about the return, because they were charging you $8 (or whatever) for non-refundable shipping and only paying the shipper $1.20. So in the end they made $6.80 for selling you nothing.
- mindslight 9y ago
  I think much of the staying power of free shipping has to do with manufacturers' price fixing. If all retailers are forced to sell at the same exact price, then the most competitive thing to do is to pay shipping out of their overhead, similar to how a brick-and-mortar store's logistics costs are covered.
antisthenes 9y ago
I can offer you the perspective of a small business employee that sells a number of products on Amazon without Prime fulfillment. In your view, how much should you have paid for shipping for an item that you didn't want? Nothing? Should the seller be responsible for shipping the item both ways? There is already very little margin in selling commodity goods, especially when you consider Amazon takes 15% of gross value as a fee. Shipping in many cases changes the order from profitable to money-losing. If you try and price it in, you can't compete on cost which begs the question of why bother selling on Amazon in the first place. The crux of the issue is this, though: Amazon doesn't give a shit about 3rd party sellers, nor can the 3rd party sellers provide the same level of customer service as Amazon can, mostly due to economies of scale. The whole 3rd party seller program is a testbed for Amazon, a research program to see how they operate and how Amazon can do it better and as soon as they realize how - the 3rd party sellers either get priced out by a race to the bottom with Amazon itself (they go directly to suppliers and cut everyone out) or by policies like these, which are ripe for abuse or eat further into seller margins to the point of operating at break-even or slightly in the red. As a last note: Whenever I buy on Amazon, I buy Prime. The incentives of customers and 3rd party sellers are incompatible. If I were a customer for the goods that we are selling, I would never buy from our company.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- jasonlaramburu 9y ago
  From the PoV of a company whose products get sold by 3rd party sellers on Amazon, it's a total disaster. They regularly sell used or returned items as 'new,' and most customers don't notice. They provide atrocious customer service. Amazon does nothing to police this. These sellers also do everything in their power to avoid processing a return. I don't want to crap on your business, but I hope these regulations push the less scrupulous 3rd party sellers back to eBay.
- sxates 9y ago
  Thanks for the perspective. I totally get it - which is why I didn't go on a rampage over my $90 pan not being up to my standards. I can sympathize with the sellers here (though I think the policies sometimes favor themselves over their customers) - BUT - as you've noted yourself, Amazon's scale has allowed them to do a lot better than the little guys. If this had been a Prime item, it would have been free return shipping and full refund, no questions asked. As a customer, why wouldn't I go for that? It makes the experience I had with a small seller seem shocking by comparison. Instead, I'll either avoid the independent sellers, or just to to Sur le Table. So how do these sellers win?
threatofrain 9y ago
Buying clothing on Amazon is also hell. I suspect that some vendors deliberately mis-size their items. For the extreme majority of items around $20-30, I don't bother returning them. If Amazon's purchasing experience was smoother, I'd be doing less paranoid research ahead of time, looking up the company, trying to figure out if the reviews are fake. If only Amazon could shape up how much buyer's disadvantage I'm experiencing on their store, I'd be buying more often and more confidently, especially from anything other than popularly reviewed items. Amazon needs to shape up their game because, yes, ordering online is convenient, but you can shop online at Walmart AND get the offline return assurance. And most stores price match Amazon now.
jasonlaramburu 9y ago
As a hardware startup who sells on Amazon, 3rd party sellers are a total nightmare. They hijack your Amazon product page, and often sell returned merchandise as 'new other' at a significant discount. Customers typically don't notice the distinction, and think they are just getting a sweet deal on a new product. I'm glad Amazon is imposing more restrictions on 3rd party sellers. Hopefully this will force some of the junk sellers to move to eBay.

by sxates 9y ago

richthegeek 9y ago

Wow, I really am amazed how few consumer protections you seem to have! In the UK we're protected on two levels: firstly the "Distance Selling Regulation" means we have the right to cancel many contracts/purchases made not-in-person within 14 days of delivery. And secondly, if a good is faulty, not as described, or unfit for purpose then we have a right to a refund under those terms also. Probably because of these already strong rights, Amazon UK (and most retailers) go beyond that and simply offer a 30 day "no questions asked" return policy in most cases. I didn't realise until now how much I took it for granted!

_Codemonkeyism 9y ago
Similiar in Germany.
- Tomte 9y ago
  Of course, the Directive is a EU Directive. Whether the UK will keep those protections is something we'll see.
cfn 9y ago
Be that as it may, I had a similar experience with an independent seller at Amazon UK. I bought a pan that arrived with a small defect and they told me I would have to pay the postage back (25 Euros on a £30 or £40 pan - I was buying from abroad). I also ended up keeping the pan and now avoid independent sellers as much as possible.
- richthegeek 9y ago
  Interesting - I certainly would have raised that to support!
- jorvi 9y ago
  Why not do a chargeback on your creditcard (or raise a PayPal claim)? The law is very clear, if an item is faulty or not as described the seller is on the hook for all costs. This includes return shipping and/or sending you a replacement. A lot of sellers will try to strong-arm you but if you just do the chargeback/claim they have no option but to eat the loss. Creditcard companies and PayPal thankfully nearly always back buyers, tilting the power balance back to the consumers' side :)
  - hak8or 9y ago
    In Europe, for some sad reason credit cards are very rarely used and many stores don't accept them. Not to mention, if you do a charge back against a store like Walmart or Amazon, you won't be able to shop there anymore because they will ban you.
    - jorvi 9y ago
      In day-to-day shopping creditcards are very rarely used, but I'm pretty confident that for internet purchases creditcards aren't that rare. And as far as being banned goes: of course you first raise the issue with Amazon. Amazon says its an independent seller, go deal with them. You try to work it out with the seller, he doesn't budge, you show him the law. Still doesn't budge, you raise it with Amazon again. If Amazon doesn't budge, tell them that you are lawfully entitled and will do a chargeback, and that they can deal with the independent seller acting illegally (and if they're smart they just chargeback the seller). If they would still ban you then, that will be one hell of a juicy court case.
drstewart 9y ago
Wow, only 30 days? That's very very low. REI and other stores here in the US offer up to a year no questions asked return policy. I didn't realize how great that was compared to the UK!
- ashark 9y ago
  > Wow, only 30 days? That's very very low. REI and other stores here in the US offer up to a year no questions asked return policy. 30 minimum required by law. Not maximum.
- gozur88 9y ago
  REI is unusual, and famously gets returns on things like clothing and tents that have been used for months.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > Wow, only 30 days? That's very very low. REI and other stores here in the US offer up to a year no questions asked return policy. REI is unusually customer-friendly, because it's a consuner cooperative. Most US stores do not offer anything like a year no-questions-asked return policy (30 days, many-questions-asked is more typical.)
dsfyu404ed 9y ago
Those "protections" come right back at you in your CoL. I'd rather purchase stuff without being able to return it than pay a price that includes my statistical risk of returning things.
ryanwaggoner 9y ago
the "Distance Selling Regulation" means we have the right to cancel many contracts/purchases made not-in-person within 14 days of delivery. First of all, the Consumer Contracts Directive replaced that in 2014, no? Second, how exactly would this have protected the buyer? Maybe no restocking fee and only difference between free and basic shipping? In EU, does seller HAVE to pay for return shipping? Third, you know that "protection" isn't free, right? You're paying for that in terms of higher prices and lost economic opportunities. Finally, the pro-EU, anti-US condescension laced with pity is so tiresome and ignorant. We get it, things work differently there. Some are better, some worse. It's hardly paradise. (For the record, I've lived in the US and the EU.)
- kfriede 9y ago
  Not to mention, not all of the EU is the same. Want to return something in Germany? Forget about it. Buying from an independent seller on Amazon is similar to buying on eBay. You're taking the risk of not having the customer service that large corporations can afford. Plus, Amazon customer support will often help out with claims where the seller is in the wrong (e.g. item does not match description).
  - sdoering 9y ago
    I don't know in what Germany you are living. But with the former "Fernabsatzgesetz" (now integrated into our BGB) we have the right to return everything we order online within a period of two weeks. Never had a problem returning anything ordered online. Ok one should nonetheless read the terms before ordering.
  - morsch 9y ago
    Not to mention, not all of the EU is the same. No, that would be rather dull. But in terms of returning stuff you bought on the Internet, it pretty much is: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_Rights_Directive_2011 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_Rights_Directive_20... "The current varying lengths of the withdrawal periods both between the Member States and for distance and off-premises contracts cause legal uncertainty and compliance costs. The same withdrawal period should apply to all distance and off-premises contracts. In the case of service contracts, the withdrawal period should expire after 14 days from the conclusion of the contract. In the case of sales contracts, the withdrawal period should expire after 14 days from the day on which the consumer or a third party other than the carrier and indicated by the consumer, acquires physical possession of the goods."
hsod 9y ago
Sometimes I think Europe's chief export is incredulity :) > And secondly, if a good is faulty, not as described, or unfit for purpose then we have a right to a refund under those terms also. None of this applies here, OP simply wasn't happy with their purchase. Does it really make sense for the seller to have to pay out of pocket for round-trip shipping on a heavy iron pan because OP didn't bother reading the listing or looking at the pictures?

xyclos 9y ago

I don't know how long ago this was, but if it was within the last 30 days (I think) you can probably file an A-to-Z Guarantee claim and get an immediate Amazon gift card credit added to your account. I did this recently with an item I ordered. I paid extra for the non-prime eligible 2nd day shipping. It didn't arrive until after 6 days. I filed a claim, and without having to wait for the claim process, Amazon immediately gave me the option to close the claim and receive a gift card for the amount I paid without returning the item.

ReverseCold 9y ago

I had a similar experience, contacted Amazon support and they just refunded me.

Sleeep 9y ago

From what I hear from Amazon sellers if a buyer contacts Amazon directly in this case Amazon will (usually?) refund the buyer no matter what the seller's return policy is. Maybe the buyer has to have "Prime" though?

settsu 9y ago

I understand the disappointment and frustration here, but choosing to be out $90 for something that will never be used—vs. recouping some money and having the offending item gone—seems like a questionable decision.

neo4sure 9y ago
Please read carefully, it will never be used because it was not as advertised"
- fnj 9y ago
  > it was not as advertised I read carefully, and did not see anything to suggest the item was not as advertised. I saw someone complain that they did not like various aspects. Absent an explicit money-back guarantee of satisfaction, I see no reason why the vendor should have to cater to every buyer's demand.
threatofrain 9y ago
I'd agree that $90 for a single item seems quite high to throw away without contention. My ballpark would be closer to $20-30, because it's not unusual for the fee to be over $10. But that's my own subjective feeling, and I imagine others put their range higher or lower based on factors like distance to UPS store or Amazon locker, or how much they logistically have on their plate.

dminor 9y ago

As you found from looking into the costs of return shipping, "free" shipping can actually cost a retailer quite a bit of their margin. They are attempting to remain price competitive by not pricing in the cost of returns. Amazon has a massive advantage here over small retailers because their shipping costs are much lower due to their scale. These sorts of shipping policies used to be the norm, until Amazon realized that people value free shipping more than an equivalent discount.

gozur88 9y ago
People value free shipping because shipping is a scam in a lot of cases. I used to work for a company that made logistics software. One of our customers was one of those cable channels that hawks merchandise around the clock. You would buy a ring (looks like a real diamond!), and when it arrived you realize "hey, this is just cheap costume jewelry" and send it back. They'd happily refund the price and express hopes you'd be happier with future items. And they didn't care about the return, because they were charging you $8 (or whatever) for non-refundable shipping and only paying the shipper $1.20. So in the end they made $6.80 for selling you nothing.
mindslight 9y ago
I think much of the staying power of free shipping has to do with manufacturers' price fixing. If all retailers are forced to sell at the same exact price, then the most competitive thing to do is to pay shipping out of their overhead, similar to how a brick-and-mortar store's logistics costs are covered.

antisthenes 9y ago

I can offer you the perspective of a small business employee that sells a number of products on Amazon without Prime fulfillment. In your view, how much should you have paid for shipping for an item that you didn't want? Nothing? Should the seller be responsible for shipping the item both ways? There is already very little margin in selling commodity goods, especially when you consider Amazon takes 15% of gross value as a fee. Shipping in many cases changes the order from profitable to money-losing. If you try and price it in, you can't compete on cost which begs the question of why bother selling on Amazon in the first place. The crux of the issue is this, though: Amazon doesn't give a shit about 3rd party sellers, nor can the 3rd party sellers provide the same level of customer service as Amazon can, mostly due to economies of scale. The whole 3rd party seller program is a testbed for Amazon, a research program to see how they operate and how Amazon can do it better and as soon as they realize how - the 3rd party sellers either get priced out by a race to the bottom with Amazon itself (they go directly to suppliers and cut everyone out) or by policies like these, which are ripe for abuse or eat further into seller margins to the point of operating at break-even or slightly in the red. As a last note: Whenever I buy on Amazon, I buy Prime. The incentives of customers and 3rd party sellers are incompatible. If I were a customer for the goods that we are selling, I would never buy from our company.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
jasonlaramburu 9y ago
From the PoV of a company whose products get sold by 3rd party sellers on Amazon, it's a total disaster. They regularly sell used or returned items as 'new,' and most customers don't notice. They provide atrocious customer service. Amazon does nothing to police this. These sellers also do everything in their power to avoid processing a return. I don't want to crap on your business, but I hope these regulations push the less scrupulous 3rd party sellers back to eBay.
sxates 9y ago
Thanks for the perspective. I totally get it - which is why I didn't go on a rampage over my $90 pan not being up to my standards. I can sympathize with the sellers here (though I think the policies sometimes favor themselves over their customers) - BUT - as you've noted yourself, Amazon's scale has allowed them to do a lot better than the little guys. If this had been a Prime item, it would have been free return shipping and full refund, no questions asked. As a customer, why wouldn't I go for that? It makes the experience I had with a small seller seem shocking by comparison. Instead, I'll either avoid the independent sellers, or just to to Sur le Table. So how do these sellers win?

threatofrain 9y ago

Buying clothing on Amazon is also hell. I suspect that some vendors deliberately mis-size their items. For the extreme majority of items around $20-30, I don't bother returning them. If Amazon's purchasing experience was smoother, I'd be doing less paranoid research ahead of time, looking up the company, trying to figure out if the reviews are fake. If only Amazon could shape up how much buyer's disadvantage I'm experiencing on their store, I'd be buying more often and more confidently, especially from anything other than popularly reviewed items. Amazon needs to shape up their game because, yes, ordering online is convenient, but you can shop online at Walmart AND get the offline return assurance. And most stores price match Amazon now.

jasonlaramburu 9y ago

As a hardware startup who sells on Amazon, 3rd party sellers are a total nightmare. They hijack your Amazon product page, and often sell returned merchandise as 'new other' at a significant discount. Customers typically don't notice the distinction, and think they are just getting a sweet deal on a new product. I'm glad Amazon is imposing more restrictions on 3rd party sellers. Hopefully this will force some of the junk sellers to move to eBay.