5 ms·

America’s Competitors Angle for Silicon Valley’s Business

30 points by sajid 9y ago

frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
I'm still undecided on the startup rule but it seems to me that it's still worth raising the minimum H1-B wage if it can increase the wage of the average american tech worker.
tapatio 9y ago
I have thought about moving to South America and opening a startup there. I just don't know that there is sufficient talent to build up a team. We can't even fill our open positions in Southern California. I am curious, how many engineers from Silicon Valley would be interested in moving to South America? Mexico? Has anyone taken a poll?
- christophilus 9y ago
  If you become a remote company, this problem is solved. There's a HUGE pool of talent working remotely. Don't isolate your options to one narrow locale.
  - tapatio 9y ago
    Good point. But I enjoy working with people in person, having stand-ups, etc. While I could see maybe 50-75% of the team working remotely, I would still want to have some local team members. I guess there is one way to find out: post some jobs and see if anyone bites.
    - nicholas73 9y ago
      What part of that is important to the business and others?
      - joshu 9y ago
        A startup is an organization in search of a business. As such, frequently collaboration needs to be done in person. Actual businesses have an easier time with remote workers.
        tapatio 9y ago
        This. Collaboration is key for a startup and that's best done in person.
    - passivepinetree 9y ago
      I would actually love to move to South America or Mexico for a job at a startup. However, it's probably a generational thing. I'm young and don't have roots in any particular area. Working on a different continent sounds like a wonderful adventure.
- ameister14 9y ago
  I think it would be tough to get people to move to South America or Mexico for a job like that because of the uncertainty around the position. If I move to NY for a job and the company folds or I get fired, I can crash on someone's couch for a couple weeks while I get a new job. I can't do that in Argentina, and I have no idea if I could get another job there in the first place.
- mtalantikite 9y ago
  I've been considering a move down to Mexico for a while now (from NYC), or at least splitting my time between Brooklyn and DF. I think you could make it work, particularly if you allowed people to work remote for part of the year. You could also rent a house for remote employees to come spend time at with the hope that they decide to move local. A startup I worked for earlier in my career rented a townhouse on South Park back in 2008 or so, which was convenient for any of us that worked remote to come be in SF for a week or two if we wanted. Plus I'm sure there are plenty of very talented engineers local to any major city that you choose to start in. Pair that with accommodating international hires with remote work, housing, and intensive Spanish lessons and you'll probably be fine.
- technofiend 9y ago
  Many large multinational corporations have offices in Buenos Aires with IT workers. RedHat has a local office that offers support for the entire region, IBM has offices for subcontracted IT, etc. In fact it's just gotten expensive enough there (the country still has some inflation although it is slowing) that some jobs are being moved out (Exxon comes to mind) from BA to India. Like anything the talent pool and their ability to speak English is on a spectrum but my personal experience hiring in-region was and is a positive one.
ng12 9y ago
Visa availability is not the magic ingredient to replicate Sillicon Valley. High wages and high concentration of talent are. What would entice an Indian or Eastern European developer to move to Mexico?
- mc32 9y ago
  Beaches and a relaxed pace of life, not unlike that of the Balearic coast instead of aggressive dog eat dog of SV culture? It is different but some people might like the more relaxed atmos.
  - trevyn 9y ago
    Interestingly, beaches are inversely correlated with economic activity. See http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v527/n7577/full/nature15725.html http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v527/n7577/full/nature1... Optimal average temperature for economic activity is 13 C, San Francisco average is 14 C.
    - davidf18 9y ago
      The article does not mention Israel which is very hot, and yet is very high on economic activity. Tel Aviv has beautiful beaches, a great cafe scene, and lots of hi-tech economic activity both from startups and established firms. Intel (with 10,000 employees), IBM, Microsoft, Google, Cisco, Apple, Oracle, Broadcom, Qualcomm, Siemens have divisions in Israel. Israel is the world's leading exporter of drones.
  - thrav 9y ago
    What if the aggressive dog eat dog culture is what sparks innovation? What if having amazing beaches and hardly any need for cash is a recipe for underachievement? People have options. If they choose the valley, they're choosing it for a reason. It's already easy enough to find remote work as a talented programmer and live wherever you want. If that's you priority, you do that. If you want the competition and the buzz and the drive, you go where the people with those shared values are concentrated (NY or SF). Where you have to either bust your ass or risk ending up on the street like the people you see on Market every day. This propels you forward at a rate that is difficult to replicate elsewhere.
fhood 9y ago
I don't see highly skilled personnel being all that keen on moving to Mexico. Canada, however, already has a few areas that seem primed to attract new talent, particularly to cities like Vancouver. Edit: I suppose Vancouver wasn't actually a great example. I just really like that area.
- ng12 9y ago
  Vancouver has the high COL of the Bay Area with significantly lower wages. I don't see it becoming a major player.
  - rfdub 9y ago
    I live in Vancouver, can confirm. Maybe after a significant liquidity event or two pumps some capital into the local ecosystem, but at present there are few (if any) world class tech companies here and despite the incredibly high and fast rising cost of living, wages are actually the lowest of any major Canadian city. Sure its a desirable place to live, but few world class talents are going to relocate here to work for second or third tier companies, for 50% less than they'd make in other markets, when a 30% more of their salary will be going to housing costs. Vancouver is a real-estate city, not a tech city and likely always will be.
    - jensv 9y ago
      I think there are a few like Arista Networks, Facebook and Amazon. You might make 80k+ and spend 15k on housing and the general cost of living is still lower than SF. Just yesterday I meant some SF based founders come visit because of tax credit incentives, lower labour costs, COL, etc.
  - purple-again 9y ago
    Also it is in Canada. A huge draw of the Bay Area is its excellent weather. A huge detriment to living in Canada is its horrible weather.
    - _delirium 9y ago
stillhere 9y ago
The notion of "good" or "bad" all depends on what you value. If you value the economy above all then this is good for companies outside the US, bad for companies inside the US. If you value jobs for your own citizens over money then opposite is true: better job opportunities for locals, bad news for corporations (at least in the short term).
davidf18 9y ago
"The president has taken particular aim at the H-1B visa program, under which the government admits 85,000 highly skilled foreign workers every year, most of them in the tech field. Mr. Trump says businesses use the program to avoid hiring higher-paid Americans, and his executive order instructed the agencies to ensure that visas were awarded to the most skilled, best-paid immigrant workers. Disney, Toys “R” Us, Southern California Edison and New York Life are among the companies that have laid off American tech workers who first were asked to train their replacements — tech workers from low-wage countries like India brought in on temporary visas. In some cases, the jobs themselves went back home with the new workers." This is evidence that Trump cares about workers like readers of HN get fair wages and that is high tech leaders that are trying to depress wages. NYT, WaPo, MSM in general attempt to paint Trump as the "bad guy" but his actions suggest otherwise. Yet, these actions rarely get directly reported in MSM. For example, these quotes should have been at the beginning of an article discussing Trump's efforts to help American get fair wages and to not have to suffer competition from Visa abuse.

30 points by sajid 9y ago

I'm still undecided on the startup rule but it seems to me that it's still worth raising the minimum H1-B wage if it can increase the wage of the average american tech worker.

tapatio 9y ago

I have thought about moving to South America and opening a startup there. I just don't know that there is sufficient talent to build up a team. We can't even fill our open positions in Southern California. I am curious, how many engineers from Silicon Valley would be interested in moving to South America? Mexico? Has anyone taken a poll?

christophilus 9y ago
If you become a remote company, this problem is solved. There's a HUGE pool of talent working remotely. Don't isolate your options to one narrow locale.
- tapatio 9y ago
  Good point. But I enjoy working with people in person, having stand-ups, etc. While I could see maybe 50-75% of the team working remotely, I would still want to have some local team members. I guess there is one way to find out: post some jobs and see if anyone bites.
  - nicholas73 9y ago
    What part of that is important to the business and others?
    - joshu 9y ago
      A startup is an organization in search of a business. As such, frequently collaboration needs to be done in person. Actual businesses have an easier time with remote workers.
      - tapatio 9y ago
        This. Collaboration is key for a startup and that's best done in person.
  - passivepinetree 9y ago
    I would actually love to move to South America or Mexico for a job at a startup. However, it's probably a generational thing. I'm young and don't have roots in any particular area. Working on a different continent sounds like a wonderful adventure.
ameister14 9y ago
I think it would be tough to get people to move to South America or Mexico for a job like that because of the uncertainty around the position. If I move to NY for a job and the company folds or I get fired, I can crash on someone's couch for a couple weeks while I get a new job. I can't do that in Argentina, and I have no idea if I could get another job there in the first place.
mtalantikite 9y ago
I've been considering a move down to Mexico for a while now (from NYC), or at least splitting my time between Brooklyn and DF. I think you could make it work, particularly if you allowed people to work remote for part of the year. You could also rent a house for remote employees to come spend time at with the hope that they decide to move local. A startup I worked for earlier in my career rented a townhouse on South Park back in 2008 or so, which was convenient for any of us that worked remote to come be in SF for a week or two if we wanted. Plus I'm sure there are plenty of very talented engineers local to any major city that you choose to start in. Pair that with accommodating international hires with remote work, housing, and intensive Spanish lessons and you'll probably be fine.
technofiend 9y ago
Many large multinational corporations have offices in Buenos Aires with IT workers. RedHat has a local office that offers support for the entire region, IBM has offices for subcontracted IT, etc. In fact it's just gotten expensive enough there (the country still has some inflation although it is slowing) that some jobs are being moved out (Exxon comes to mind) from BA to India. Like anything the talent pool and their ability to speak English is on a spectrum but my personal experience hiring in-region was and is a positive one.

ng12 9y ago

Visa availability is not the magic ingredient to replicate Sillicon Valley. High wages and high concentration of talent are. What would entice an Indian or Eastern European developer to move to Mexico?

mc32 9y ago
Beaches and a relaxed pace of life, not unlike that of the Balearic coast instead of aggressive dog eat dog of SV culture? It is different but some people might like the more relaxed atmos.
- trevyn 9y ago
  Interestingly, beaches are inversely correlated with economic activity. See http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v527/n7577/full/nature15725.html http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v527/n7577/full/nature1... Optimal average temperature for economic activity is 13 C, San Francisco average is 14 C.
  - davidf18 9y ago
    The article does not mention Israel which is very hot, and yet is very high on economic activity. Tel Aviv has beautiful beaches, a great cafe scene, and lots of hi-tech economic activity both from startups and established firms. Intel (with 10,000 employees), IBM, Microsoft, Google, Cisco, Apple, Oracle, Broadcom, Qualcomm, Siemens have divisions in Israel. Israel is the world's leading exporter of drones.
- thrav 9y ago
  What if the aggressive dog eat dog culture is what sparks innovation? What if having amazing beaches and hardly any need for cash is a recipe for underachievement? People have options. If they choose the valley, they're choosing it for a reason. It's already easy enough to find remote work as a talented programmer and live wherever you want. If that's you priority, you do that. If you want the competition and the buzz and the drive, you go where the people with those shared values are concentrated (NY or SF). Where you have to either bust your ass or risk ending up on the street like the people you see on Market every day. This propels you forward at a rate that is difficult to replicate elsewhere.

fhood 9y ago

I don't see highly skilled personnel being all that keen on moving to Mexico. Canada, however, already has a few areas that seem primed to attract new talent, particularly to cities like Vancouver. Edit: I suppose Vancouver wasn't actually a great example. I just really like that area.

ng12 9y ago
Vancouver has the high COL of the Bay Area with significantly lower wages. I don't see it becoming a major player.
- rfdub 9y ago
  I live in Vancouver, can confirm. Maybe after a significant liquidity event or two pumps some capital into the local ecosystem, but at present there are few (if any) world class tech companies here and despite the incredibly high and fast rising cost of living, wages are actually the lowest of any major Canadian city. Sure its a desirable place to live, but few world class talents are going to relocate here to work for second or third tier companies, for 50% less than they'd make in other markets, when a 30% more of their salary will be going to housing costs. Vancouver is a real-estate city, not a tech city and likely always will be.
  - jensv 9y ago
    I think there are a few like Arista Networks, Facebook and Amazon. You might make 80k+ and spend 15k on housing and the general cost of living is still lower than SF. Just yesterday I meant some SF based founders come visit because of tax credit incentives, lower labour costs, COL, etc.
- purple-again 9y ago
  Also it is in Canada. A huge draw of the Bay Area is its excellent weather. A huge detriment to living in Canada is its horrible weather.
  - _delirium 9y ago

stillhere 9y ago

The notion of "good" or "bad" all depends on what you value. If you value the economy above all then this is good for companies outside the US, bad for companies inside the US. If you value jobs for your own citizens over money then opposite is true: better job opportunities for locals, bad news for corporations (at least in the short term).

davidf18 9y ago

"The president has taken particular aim at the H-1B visa program, under which the government admits 85,000 highly skilled foreign workers every year, most of them in the tech field. Mr. Trump says businesses use the program to avoid hiring higher-paid Americans, and his executive order instructed the agencies to ensure that visas were awarded to the most skilled, best-paid immigrant workers. Disney, Toys “R” Us, Southern California Edison and New York Life are among the companies that have laid off American tech workers who first were asked to train their replacements — tech workers from low-wage countries like India brought in on temporary visas. In some cases, the jobs themselves went back home with the new workers." This is evidence that Trump cares about workers like readers of HN get fair wages and that is high tech leaders that are trying to depress wages. NYT, WaPo, MSM in general attempt to paint Trump as the "bad guy" but his actions suggest otherwise. Yet, these actions rarely get directly reported in MSM. For example, these quotes should have been at the beginning of an article discussing Trump's efforts to help American get fair wages and to not have to suffer competition from Visa abuse.