11 ms·

A unique Judaeo-Urdu manuscript, Or.13287

64 points by diodorus 9y ago

FlyingSnake 9y ago
This is a fascinating synthesis of cultures. A Shia Muslim king gave patronage to a Jewish artist who created a syncretic work based on Hindu themes (the celestial court of Indra) in a language derived from Hindustani and a script loaned from Farsi. It provides a glimpse at a past when cultures were collaborating with each other freely to create great art work, without animosity. I wonder how many more such unique works will be re-discovered and brought to light.
- tariandbari 9y ago
  Nothing like the times when Britain ruled over India.
  - dang 9y ago
    We ban accounts that use HN primarily for political and ideological battle, especially when they use drive-by snark to do it. Topics like this are divisive enough without Molotov cocktails, so would you please not do this? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html
- dalbasal 9y ago
  I'm not sure we can/should assume a lack of animosity. In most cases, these things exist alongside animosity. Human culture is very complex and the story is usually multifaceted. We all recently revolted against the last empires and quasi-empires in favour of nationalism. It's hard to say it was unjustified, and it often came with democracy and other aspects of liberty and liberalism. But empires have played complex roles in human history. They were oppressors and enslavers, but also collectors of culture and scholarship. Enablers of travel, commerce and cultural exchange. They brought disparate cultures together, voluntarily and involuntary. Massive empire building in many cases left culturally rich legacies. The Mongolian empire opened east-west exchange of ideas and contact between scholarly, religious and artistic culture throughout all Eurasia. Some credit it with enabling cultural movements like the Italian Renaissance. This was alongside atrocities. Look up the conquest of Baghdad. The Baghdadi Jews the article references have a long history with empires. The community started 2700 years ago, when the King of babylon conquered Judea and shipped Jerusalem's elite to the Bagdad area. The enormous Persian empire conquered Babylon and they were at the center of a cultural superpower. Then Alexander's Greeks Came, then Romans, Parthians, Caliphs, Khans, Seljuks, Ottomans... Many Emperors. Much blood. Much art.
  - ranit 9y ago
    > We all recently revolted against the last empires and quasi-empires in favour of nationalism "We all" is an overstatement.
    - dalbasal 9y ago
      An ounce of artistic license,please. We (the vast majority of us) can't caveat everything. :)
- eternalban 9y ago
  This is a perfect example of cultural misappropriation. There is no "synthesis". https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/synthesis https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/synthesis Kindly enlighten me as to what "diverse" concepts, formulations, ideas, etc., are brought here together as a coherent form. (Poorly executed Hebrew "calligraphy"?) This forum is likely an inappropriate venue to delve into the political and civilizational dimensions of the concerted efforts of the British academic institutions to attempt to diminish the Persian civilization and culture and its preeminence as the cultural foundation of the 'Iranian Peoples' [1], so we'll let that pass. Delving into the misunderstandings willfully communicated by the British Library, we note the following: 1 - Sabz سبز [2][3] means Green in both Farsi and Urdu. 2 - Emeralds [4][5] have a name in both language. 3 - Nizami's Seven Beauties explicitly uses 'Color' symbolism. (And no, Green is not indicative of a mineral in that spiritual and mystic text.) [6] 4 - The curious case of degeneration of established civilizations -- High Western Civilization was the first victim -- that cynically puts forth entirely artless and amateurish "syncretic" craft [7] as equal or worthy continuation of sublime works of art. [7][8] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples [2]: https://translate.google.com/#fa/en/%D8%B3%D8%A8%D8%B2 https://translate.google.com/#fa/en/%D8%B3%D8%A8%D8%B2 [3]: https://translate.google.com/#ur/en/%D8%B3%D8%A8%D8%B2 https://translate.google.com/#ur/en/%D8%B3%D8%A8%D8%B2 [4]: https://translate.google.com/#en/fa/emerald https://translate.google.com/#en/fa/emerald [5]: https://translate.google.com/#en/ur/emerald https://translate.google.com/#en/ur/emerald [6]: https://theculturetrip.com/europe/azerbaijan/articles/the-seven-beauties-of-nizami-ganjavi/ https://theculturetrip.com/europe/azerbaijan/articles/the-se... [7]: http://a6.typepad.com/6a017ee66ba427970d01b8d296ef8e970c-pi http://a6.typepad.com/6a017ee66ba427970d01b8d296ef8e970c-pi [8]: https://mohafezekar.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/azaryun-yaghma.jpg https://mohafezekar.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/azaryun-yagh...
- hprotagonist 9y ago
  How about the Morgan Bible? The book consists of paintings of events from Hebrew scripture, set in the scenery and customs of thirteenth-century France, depicted from a Christian perspective. Scenes are surrounded by text in three scripts and five languages: Latin, Persian, Arabic, Judeo-Persian, and Hebrew. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgan_Bible https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgan_Bible http://www.themorgan.org/collection/Crusader-Bible/thumbs http://www.themorgan.org/collection/Crusader-Bible/thumbs
- umeshunni 9y ago
  You realize this work is from the mid 19th century, right? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wajid_Ali_Shah https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wajid_Ali_Shah
zabana 9y ago
The animosity is mainly a product of western domination tactics. But I do agree on the fact that these discoveries are extremely important to build a better understanding of our past and the complexity of international relations back then.
- tariandbari 9y ago
  Exactly! This is all western domination tactics!! In-fact I'm sure the lat terror act from ISIS was a direct order from Trump himself to prevent the Afghan robotic team from ever returning to the US http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/08/father-robotics-team-member-killed-herat-attack-170803045510693.html http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/08/father-robotics-team-m...
- cabalamat 9y ago
  > The animosity is mainly a product of western domination tactics Really? The West has only been a dominant force in world affairs for about 500 years and a lot of conflict, wars, massacres, and general unpleasantness happened long before then. Animosity between cultures mainly happens because humans are groupish, and bigoted against out-groups. This is true of all human societies. It's nothing specifically to do with the West.
  - ycombinete 9y ago
    This is a very good response, which I hope the person that you responded to will take to heart. I'm always amazed by the historical ignorance of so many people who hold firm geopolitical views though, and sometimes wonder if it is willful. I'd like to add to your post that anyone looking for interesting writing on this subject should have a look at Jonathan Haidt's The Righteous Mind. (Based on the language of you post I think you might have read it?)
    - tawel001 9y ago
      > and sometimes wonder if it is willful I think it is. We See What We Want to See and hear what we want to hear [0] Francis Bacon said in 1620 that "the human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion … draws all things else to support and agree with it. And though there be a greater number and weight of instances to be found on the other side, yet these it either neglects and despises, or else by some distinction sets aside and rejects; in order that by this great and pernicious predetermination the authority of its former conclusions may remain inviolate." [1] Biased processing and confirmation bias are most likely to occur when people feel threatened in their beliefs[2] [0] - https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/kidding-ourselves/201404/we-see-what-we-want-see https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/kidding-ourselves/20140... https://blogs.worldbank.org/publicsphere/i-only-hear-what-i-want-hear-and-so-do-you https://blogs.worldbank.org/publicsphere/i-only-hear-what-i-... [1] - www.constitution.org/bacon/nov_org.htm [2] - http://psy2.ucsd.edu/~mckenzie/nickersonConfirmationBias.pdf http://psy2.ucsd.edu/~mckenzie/nickersonConfirmationBias.pdf Thanks for the book suggestion though.
lninyo 9y ago
I do not see any Urdu script in any of the pictures. What am I missing here?

64 points by diodorus 9y ago

This is a fascinating synthesis of cultures. A Shia Muslim king gave patronage to a Jewish artist who created a syncretic work based on Hindu themes (the celestial court of Indra) in a language derived from Hindustani and a script loaned from Farsi. It provides a glimpse at a past when cultures were collaborating with each other freely to create great art work, without animosity. I wonder how many more such unique works will be re-discovered and brought to light.

tariandbari 9y ago
Nothing like the times when Britain ruled over India.
- dang 9y ago
  We ban accounts that use HN primarily for political and ideological battle, especially when they use drive-by snark to do it. Topics like this are divisive enough without Molotov cocktails, so would you please not do this? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html
dalbasal 9y ago
I'm not sure we can/should assume a lack of animosity. In most cases, these things exist alongside animosity. Human culture is very complex and the story is usually multifaceted. We all recently revolted against the last empires and quasi-empires in favour of nationalism. It's hard to say it was unjustified, and it often came with democracy and other aspects of liberty and liberalism. But empires have played complex roles in human history. They were oppressors and enslavers, but also collectors of culture and scholarship. Enablers of travel, commerce and cultural exchange. They brought disparate cultures together, voluntarily and involuntary. Massive empire building in many cases left culturally rich legacies. The Mongolian empire opened east-west exchange of ideas and contact between scholarly, religious and artistic culture throughout all Eurasia. Some credit it with enabling cultural movements like the Italian Renaissance. This was alongside atrocities. Look up the conquest of Baghdad. The Baghdadi Jews the article references have a long history with empires. The community started 2700 years ago, when the King of babylon conquered Judea and shipped Jerusalem's elite to the Bagdad area. The enormous Persian empire conquered Babylon and they were at the center of a cultural superpower. Then Alexander's Greeks Came, then Romans, Parthians, Caliphs, Khans, Seljuks, Ottomans... Many Emperors. Much blood. Much art.
- ranit 9y ago
  > We all recently revolted against the last empires and quasi-empires in favour of nationalism "We all" is an overstatement.
  - dalbasal 9y ago
    An ounce of artistic license,please. We (the vast majority of us) can't caveat everything. :)
eternalban 9y ago
This is a perfect example of cultural misappropriation. There is no "synthesis". https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/synthesis https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/synthesis Kindly enlighten me as to what "diverse" concepts, formulations, ideas, etc., are brought here together as a coherent form. (Poorly executed Hebrew "calligraphy"?) This forum is likely an inappropriate venue to delve into the political and civilizational dimensions of the concerted efforts of the British academic institutions to attempt to diminish the Persian civilization and culture and its preeminence as the cultural foundation of the 'Iranian Peoples' [1], so we'll let that pass. Delving into the misunderstandings willfully communicated by the British Library, we note the following: 1 - Sabz سبز [2][3] means Green in both Farsi and Urdu. 2 - Emeralds [4][5] have a name in both language. 3 - Nizami's Seven Beauties explicitly uses 'Color' symbolism. (And no, Green is not indicative of a mineral in that spiritual and mystic text.) [6] 4 - The curious case of degeneration of established civilizations -- High Western Civilization was the first victim -- that cynically puts forth entirely artless and amateurish "syncretic" craft [7] as equal or worthy continuation of sublime works of art. [7][8] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples [2]: https://translate.google.com/#fa/en/%D8%B3%D8%A8%D8%B2 https://translate.google.com/#fa/en/%D8%B3%D8%A8%D8%B2 [3]: https://translate.google.com/#ur/en/%D8%B3%D8%A8%D8%B2 https://translate.google.com/#ur/en/%D8%B3%D8%A8%D8%B2 [4]: https://translate.google.com/#en/fa/emerald https://translate.google.com/#en/fa/emerald [5]: https://translate.google.com/#en/ur/emerald https://translate.google.com/#en/ur/emerald [6]: https://theculturetrip.com/europe/azerbaijan/articles/the-seven-beauties-of-nizami-ganjavi/ https://theculturetrip.com/europe/azerbaijan/articles/the-se... [7]: http://a6.typepad.com/6a017ee66ba427970d01b8d296ef8e970c-pi http://a6.typepad.com/6a017ee66ba427970d01b8d296ef8e970c-pi [8]: https://mohafezekar.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/azaryun-yaghma.jpg https://mohafezekar.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/azaryun-yagh...
hprotagonist 9y ago
How about the Morgan Bible? The book consists of paintings of events from Hebrew scripture, set in the scenery and customs of thirteenth-century France, depicted from a Christian perspective. Scenes are surrounded by text in three scripts and five languages: Latin, Persian, Arabic, Judeo-Persian, and Hebrew. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgan_Bible https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgan_Bible http://www.themorgan.org/collection/Crusader-Bible/thumbs http://www.themorgan.org/collection/Crusader-Bible/thumbs
umeshunni 9y ago
You realize this work is from the mid 19th century, right? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wajid_Ali_Shah https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wajid_Ali_Shah

zabana 9y ago

The animosity is mainly a product of western domination tactics. But I do agree on the fact that these discoveries are extremely important to build a better understanding of our past and the complexity of international relations back then.

tariandbari 9y ago
Exactly! This is all western domination tactics!! In-fact I'm sure the lat terror act from ISIS was a direct order from Trump himself to prevent the Afghan robotic team from ever returning to the US http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/08/father-robotics-team-member-killed-herat-attack-170803045510693.html http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/08/father-robotics-team-m...
cabalamat 9y ago
> The animosity is mainly a product of western domination tactics Really? The West has only been a dominant force in world affairs for about 500 years and a lot of conflict, wars, massacres, and general unpleasantness happened long before then. Animosity between cultures mainly happens because humans are groupish, and bigoted against out-groups. This is true of all human societies. It's nothing specifically to do with the West.
- ycombinete 9y ago
  This is a very good response, which I hope the person that you responded to will take to heart. I'm always amazed by the historical ignorance of so many people who hold firm geopolitical views though, and sometimes wonder if it is willful. I'd like to add to your post that anyone looking for interesting writing on this subject should have a look at Jonathan Haidt's The Righteous Mind. (Based on the language of you post I think you might have read it?)
  - tawel001 9y ago
    > and sometimes wonder if it is willful I think it is. We See What We Want to See and hear what we want to hear [0] Francis Bacon said in 1620 that "the human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion … draws all things else to support and agree with it. And though there be a greater number and weight of instances to be found on the other side, yet these it either neglects and despises, or else by some distinction sets aside and rejects; in order that by this great and pernicious predetermination the authority of its former conclusions may remain inviolate." [1] Biased processing and confirmation bias are most likely to occur when people feel threatened in their beliefs[2] [0] - https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/kidding-ourselves/201404/we-see-what-we-want-see https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/kidding-ourselves/20140... https://blogs.worldbank.org/publicsphere/i-only-hear-what-i-want-hear-and-so-do-you https://blogs.worldbank.org/publicsphere/i-only-hear-what-i-... [1] - www.constitution.org/bacon/nov_org.htm [2] - http://psy2.ucsd.edu/~mckenzie/nickersonConfirmationBias.pdf http://psy2.ucsd.edu/~mckenzie/nickersonConfirmationBias.pdf Thanks for the book suggestion though.

lninyo 9y ago

I do not see any Urdu script in any of the pictures. What am I missing here?