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> Soy I wonder how the community here will respond to this. Most here seemed upset by the male-infertility story from a week or two ago. Turning around to gush

> Soy I wonder how the community here will respond to this. Most here seemed upset by the male-infertility story from a week or two ago. Turning around to gush over soy would be completely incoherent. "Soy as health food" is diabolically false.

ZenoArrow 9y ago
> "Most here seemed upset by the male-infertility story from a week or two ago." Do you have a link to that story?
- concinds 9y ago
  Actually only 6 days ago. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14855796 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14855796
  - ZenoArrow 9y ago
    No explicit mention of soy, plus "The analysis did not explore reasons for the decline". Furthermore, it's said that plant-derived oestrogen does not act in the same way as human-derived oestrogen. I'll find a link... EDIT: Link... http://www.pcrm.org/health/cancer-resources/ask/ask-the-expert-soy http://www.pcrm.org/health/cancer-resources/ask/ask-the-expe... "Phytoestrogens, being weak estrogens, are like small, private planes with few passengers and no cargo, yet they still occupy the Jetway after landing. When phytoestrogens occupy the cell, normal estrogens cannot. Plant estrogens do not eliminate all of estrogen's effects, but they do minimize them, apparently reducing breast cancer risk and menstrual symptoms. For men and boys, the phytoestrogens in soy do not appear to have any effect on hormone levels and have not been shown to affect sexual development or fertility. Research studies show that men consuming soy have less prostate cancer and better prostate cancer survival."
    - concinds 9y ago
      Why would it mention soy? The article only brings up what I said it brought up, the fertility decline. Soy protein does blunt testosterone production. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/10/131010091557.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/10/131010091557.h... Soy's effects are well known, at least among (some) doctors. -- edited after the parent's edit: Soy contains phytoestrogens, which are endocrine disruptors. Soy is incredibly estrogenic (http://igrow.org/livestock/beef/hormones-in-beef-myth-vs.-fact/ http://igrow.org/livestock/beef/hormones-in-beef-myth-vs.-fa... Table 1). See the following research if you're interested. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21175082 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21175082 > Phytoestrogens, natural plant compounds abundantly found in soy and soy products, behave as weak estrogen mimics or as antiestrogens. They are considered to be EDCs [endocrine disrupting compounds], and have some beneficial effects on health, including reducing the risk of breast cancer and improving metabolic parameters. However, the supporting evidence that consumption of phytoestrogens is beneficial is indirect and inconsistent. Lifetime exposure to estrogenic substances, especially during critical periods of development, has been associated with formation of malignancies and several anomalies of the reproductive systems. And, the most relevant one: https://academic.oup.com/humrep/article/23/11/2584/2913898/Soy-food-and-isoflavone-intake-in-relation-to https://academic.oup.com/humrep/article/23/11/2584/2913898/S... "These data suggest that higher intake of soy foods and soy isoflavones is associated with lower sperm concentration."
      - ZenoArrow 9y ago
        Do any of these doctors you refer to also note that beer is a high source of phytoestrogens?
koverda 9y ago
This seems to be one molecule from the soy plant.
- concinds 9y ago
  No, this burger contains both soy leghemoglobin and soy protein isolate. I assume you thought I was referring only to the first one.
cbhl 9y ago
Their "soy leghemoglobin" doesn't come from soy though. It comes from GMO Algae. Presumably they could reprogram that algae to produce a different hemoglobin-like molecule.
- concinds 9y ago
  Check the ingredients list: >Full Ingredient List: >Water, Textured Wheat Protein, Coconut Oil, Potato Protein, Natural Flavors, 2% or less of: Leghemoglobin (soy), Yeast Extract, Salt, Soy Protein Isolate, Konjac Gum, Xanthan Gum, Thiamin (Vitamin B1), Zinc, Niacin, Vitamin B6, Riboflavin (Vitamin B2), Vitamin B12. >Contains: >Soy, Wheat This contains soy. My comment stands.
  - cbhl 9y ago
    Those labels are because the compounds could trigger a soy allergy, because, y'know, they're chemically identical. Notice that all the "soy" falls in the "2% or less of" bucket. This is not the same as a soy burger. Have you eaten one?
    - concinds 9y ago
      When did I say this was a 100% soy burger? > Those labels are because the compounds could trigger a soy allergy ...because it contains soy, which has negative effects on fertility. That was my whole point. So why change the subject?
      - acchow 9y ago
        At what quantities does soy have negative effects on fertility?
        PretzelPirate 9y ago
        According to the study, it seems that consuming regular really only impacted men who were overweight or obese. I'd be interested in understanding if this really had something to do with the men being overweight and something they were previously eating was causing their sperm count to be abnormally high for their level of health. From https://academic.oup.com/humrep/article/23/11/2584/2913898/Soy-food-and-isoflavone-intake-in-relation-to#56144213 https://academic.oup.com/humrep/article/23/11/2584/2913898/S...: This association was stronger at the higher end of the sperm concentration distribution suggesting that soy food intake may have stronger associations among men with normal or high sperm concentrations than among men with low sperm concentration. Also, soy food intake was more strongly inversely related to sperm concentration among overweight and obese men. Intake of soy foods or isoflavones was unrelated to the remaining semen analysis parameters examined.
dang 9y ago
Of course HN is 'completely incoherent'. So is any real sample of millions of people.

ZenoArrow 9y ago

> "Most here seemed upset by the male-infertility story from a week or two ago." Do you have a link to that story?

concinds 9y ago
Actually only 6 days ago. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14855796 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14855796
- ZenoArrow 9y ago
  No explicit mention of soy, plus "The analysis did not explore reasons for the decline". Furthermore, it's said that plant-derived oestrogen does not act in the same way as human-derived oestrogen. I'll find a link... EDIT: Link... http://www.pcrm.org/health/cancer-resources/ask/ask-the-expert-soy http://www.pcrm.org/health/cancer-resources/ask/ask-the-expe... "Phytoestrogens, being weak estrogens, are like small, private planes with few passengers and no cargo, yet they still occupy the Jetway after landing. When phytoestrogens occupy the cell, normal estrogens cannot. Plant estrogens do not eliminate all of estrogen's effects, but they do minimize them, apparently reducing breast cancer risk and menstrual symptoms. For men and boys, the phytoestrogens in soy do not appear to have any effect on hormone levels and have not been shown to affect sexual development or fertility. Research studies show that men consuming soy have less prostate cancer and better prostate cancer survival."
  - concinds 9y ago
    Why would it mention soy? The article only brings up what I said it brought up, the fertility decline. Soy protein does blunt testosterone production. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/10/131010091557.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/10/131010091557.h... Soy's effects are well known, at least among (some) doctors. -- edited after the parent's edit: Soy contains phytoestrogens, which are endocrine disruptors. Soy is incredibly estrogenic (http://igrow.org/livestock/beef/hormones-in-beef-myth-vs.-fact/ http://igrow.org/livestock/beef/hormones-in-beef-myth-vs.-fa... Table 1). See the following research if you're interested. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21175082 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21175082 > Phytoestrogens, natural plant compounds abundantly found in soy and soy products, behave as weak estrogen mimics or as antiestrogens. They are considered to be EDCs [endocrine disrupting compounds], and have some beneficial effects on health, including reducing the risk of breast cancer and improving metabolic parameters. However, the supporting evidence that consumption of phytoestrogens is beneficial is indirect and inconsistent. Lifetime exposure to estrogenic substances, especially during critical periods of development, has been associated with formation of malignancies and several anomalies of the reproductive systems. And, the most relevant one: https://academic.oup.com/humrep/article/23/11/2584/2913898/Soy-food-and-isoflavone-intake-in-relation-to https://academic.oup.com/humrep/article/23/11/2584/2913898/S... "These data suggest that higher intake of soy foods and soy isoflavones is associated with lower sperm concentration."
    - ZenoArrow 9y ago
      Do any of these doctors you refer to also note that beer is a high source of phytoestrogens?

koverda 9y ago

This seems to be one molecule from the soy plant.

concinds 9y ago
No, this burger contains both soy leghemoglobin and soy protein isolate. I assume you thought I was referring only to the first one.

cbhl 9y ago

Their "soy leghemoglobin" doesn't come from soy though. It comes from GMO Algae. Presumably they could reprogram that algae to produce a different hemoglobin-like molecule.

concinds 9y ago
Check the ingredients list: >Full Ingredient List: >Water, Textured Wheat Protein, Coconut Oil, Potato Protein, Natural Flavors, 2% or less of: Leghemoglobin (soy), Yeast Extract, Salt, Soy Protein Isolate, Konjac Gum, Xanthan Gum, Thiamin (Vitamin B1), Zinc, Niacin, Vitamin B6, Riboflavin (Vitamin B2), Vitamin B12. >Contains: >Soy, Wheat This contains soy. My comment stands.
- cbhl 9y ago
  Those labels are because the compounds could trigger a soy allergy, because, y'know, they're chemically identical. Notice that all the "soy" falls in the "2% or less of" bucket. This is not the same as a soy burger. Have you eaten one?
  - concinds 9y ago
    When did I say this was a 100% soy burger? > Those labels are because the compounds could trigger a soy allergy ...because it contains soy, which has negative effects on fertility. That was my whole point. So why change the subject?
    - acchow 9y ago
      At what quantities does soy have negative effects on fertility?
      - PretzelPirate 9y ago
        According to the study, it seems that consuming regular really only impacted men who were overweight or obese. I'd be interested in understanding if this really had something to do with the men being overweight and something they were previously eating was causing their sperm count to be abnormally high for their level of health. From https://academic.oup.com/humrep/article/23/11/2584/2913898/Soy-food-and-isoflavone-intake-in-relation-to#56144213 https://academic.oup.com/humrep/article/23/11/2584/2913898/S...: This association was stronger at the higher end of the sperm concentration distribution suggesting that soy food intake may have stronger associations among men with normal or high sperm concentrations than among men with low sperm concentration. Also, soy food intake was more strongly inversely related to sperm concentration among overweight and obese men. Intake of soy foods or isoflavones was unrelated to the remaining semen analysis parameters examined.

dang 9y ago

Of course HN is 'completely incoherent'. So is any real sample of millions of people.