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"Had there been no atomic bombs the world may have been a very different place." That is true, but for reasons that have nothing to do with Japan. As far as Ja

by hristov 16y ago

"Had there been no atomic bombs the world may have been a very different place." That is true, but for reasons that have nothing to do with Japan. As far as Japan is concerned, the theories about how they would have fought for every house, etc. are false. The Japanese were trying to negotiate a surrender even before the first atomic bomb fell.

weego 16y ago
Indeed so, but I read they were considering surrendering to the Russians, which is something the US really didn't want.
- hristov 16y ago
  I don't know where you read that but it makes no sense. The Russians could not have taken Japan if they wanted to, they had to go through the US navy to do that. The Soviet Navy at the time was not much to speak of and it also happened to be on the other side of the earth. A big chunk of the Japanese army surrendered to the Russians (as they were stuck in China), and also, if I remember correctly, the Japanese tried to use the Russians as mediators in their negotiations with the Americans, but there was no chance of the Soviet Union taking over Japan. First, they could not get there even if they wanted, and secondly Stalin was not about to openly defy the US at that point.
  - NickPollard 16y ago
    Although Russia definitely did want Japan's conquered territory in China and the rest of mainland Asia - the main lasting effect of the Atomic Bombs on the geo-political outcomes of the war was giving the Americans the ability to force the surrender before Russia began its invasion of Manchuria. This is why the Japanese attempts to negotiate a measured surrender through the Soviets were ultimately futile - it was actually in Stalin's interests to not pass on the Japanese proposals to the US, as an early peace deal would kill his opportunity to land grab in Asia.
  - wanderingknight 16y ago
    They were actively engaged in negotiations with Russia before the US dropped the bombs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan#Attempts_to_deal_with_the_Soviet_Union http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan#Attempts_to_...
    - hristov 16y ago
      Yes, as i said they were trying to get the Russians to mediate a peace deal for them. This is why togo said that they were seeking peace through the good offices of Russia.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
  - philwelch 16y ago
    It was long suspected--no less by the Soviets--that another motive for the atomic bombings was to warn off Stalin. (Of course, there were enough idealistic traitors in the Manhattan Project that Stalin knew all about it and got his very own atomic bombs a few years later, so the joke was on us.)
- philwelch 16y ago
  Considering the fate of the parts of Europe which ended up occupied by the Russians, it's probably good for Japan that they ended up surrendering the way they did.
miked 16y ago
As far as Japan is concerned, the theories about how they would have fought for every house, etc. are false. One of the most astonishing facts about the Pacific War was how few Japanese soldiers ever surrendered to the Allies (before the war officially ended). The Japanese sense of honor demanded that they fight till the end and never surrender. I no longer have the exact number, but IIRC, the total number of captives was less than a few thousands. Compare that with the number of German, Italian, Croat, Romanian, etc., prisoners taken. This was so extreme that on Saipan, Japanese troops murdered ethnic Japanese civilians by forcing them to jump off cliffs to their deaths. The Japanese were trying to negotiate a surrender even before the first atomic bomb fell. One minority faction was. Bear in mind that, even after the first fission bomb fell on Hiroshima, they still didn't surrender. It took another bomb to force them to quit. Also, even before Hiroshima, the Japanese has already trained millions of civilians to fight against the Allies. Many were expected to use nothing more than bamboo spears. BTW, as I recall, the Japanese government expected ten million Japanese civilians to die fighting the invasion. The US expected to take up to one million casualties.
- gaius 16y ago
  As Neal Stephenson says in Cryptonomicon, the only Japanese soldiers who understood that banzai charges didn't work had already been killed in banzai charges.
- MichaelSalib 16y ago
  The US expected to take up to one million casualties. I'm not sure this was true. The US might have expected to take such large numbers of casualties IF they insisted on invading very quickly for purely political reasons. But given a bit more time, there need not be so many casualties at all. Japan was literally starving. Everyone was on severely reduced food rations, including soldiers. Within a year or so, no one would have the strength to resist invasion anyway. In addition, the blockade destroyed Japan's ability to produce armaments, so the only way to resist invasion would have been wooden spears and hand to hand combat. A man who's subsisted on 800 calories a day for the past 2 months won't put up much of a fight. Wait a few months more and he'll be dead, at which point he really won't put up much of a fight.

by hristov 16y ago

weego 16y ago

Indeed so, but I read they were considering surrendering to the Russians, which is something the US really didn't want.

hristov 16y ago
I don't know where you read that but it makes no sense. The Russians could not have taken Japan if they wanted to, they had to go through the US navy to do that. The Soviet Navy at the time was not much to speak of and it also happened to be on the other side of the earth. A big chunk of the Japanese army surrendered to the Russians (as they were stuck in China), and also, if I remember correctly, the Japanese tried to use the Russians as mediators in their negotiations with the Americans, but there was no chance of the Soviet Union taking over Japan. First, they could not get there even if they wanted, and secondly Stalin was not about to openly defy the US at that point.
- NickPollard 16y ago
  Although Russia definitely did want Japan's conquered territory in China and the rest of mainland Asia - the main lasting effect of the Atomic Bombs on the geo-political outcomes of the war was giving the Americans the ability to force the surrender before Russia began its invasion of Manchuria. This is why the Japanese attempts to negotiate a measured surrender through the Soviets were ultimately futile - it was actually in Stalin's interests to not pass on the Japanese proposals to the US, as an early peace deal would kill his opportunity to land grab in Asia.
- wanderingknight 16y ago
  They were actively engaged in negotiations with Russia before the US dropped the bombs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan#Attempts_to_deal_with_the_Soviet_Union http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan#Attempts_to_...
  - hristov 16y ago
    Yes, as i said they were trying to get the Russians to mediate a peace deal for them. This is why togo said that they were seeking peace through the good offices of Russia.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
- philwelch 16y ago
  It was long suspected--no less by the Soviets--that another motive for the atomic bombings was to warn off Stalin. (Of course, there were enough idealistic traitors in the Manhattan Project that Stalin knew all about it and got his very own atomic bombs a few years later, so the joke was on us.)
philwelch 16y ago
Considering the fate of the parts of Europe which ended up occupied by the Russians, it's probably good for Japan that they ended up surrendering the way they did.

miked 16y ago

As far as Japan is concerned, the theories about how they would have fought for every house, etc. are false. One of the most astonishing facts about the Pacific War was how few Japanese soldiers ever surrendered to the Allies (before the war officially ended). The Japanese sense of honor demanded that they fight till the end and never surrender. I no longer have the exact number, but IIRC, the total number of captives was less than a few thousands. Compare that with the number of German, Italian, Croat, Romanian, etc., prisoners taken. This was so extreme that on Saipan, Japanese troops murdered ethnic Japanese civilians by forcing them to jump off cliffs to their deaths. The Japanese were trying to negotiate a surrender even before the first atomic bomb fell. One minority faction was. Bear in mind that, even after the first fission bomb fell on Hiroshima, they still didn't surrender. It took another bomb to force them to quit. Also, even before Hiroshima, the Japanese has already trained millions of civilians to fight against the Allies. Many were expected to use nothing more than bamboo spears. BTW, as I recall, the Japanese government expected ten million Japanese civilians to die fighting the invasion. The US expected to take up to one million casualties.

gaius 16y ago
As Neal Stephenson says in Cryptonomicon, the only Japanese soldiers who understood that banzai charges didn't work had already been killed in banzai charges.
MichaelSalib 16y ago
The US expected to take up to one million casualties. I'm not sure this was true. The US might have expected to take such large numbers of casualties IF they insisted on invading very quickly for purely political reasons. But given a bit more time, there need not be so many casualties at all. Japan was literally starving. Everyone was on severely reduced food rations, including soldiers. Within a year or so, no one would have the strength to resist invasion anyway. In addition, the blockade destroyed Japan's ability to produce armaments, so the only way to resist invasion would have been wooden spears and hand to hand combat. A man who's subsisted on 800 calories a day for the past 2 months won't put up much of a fight. Wait a few months more and he'll be dead, at which point he really won't put up much of a fight.