3 ms·

I hate Maduro as much as any sane person should but these particular people were rallying the people and the army to do a coup. I'm not sure how well that would

by dep_b 9y ago

I hate Maduro as much as any sane person should but these particular people were rallying the people and the army to do a coup. I'm not sure how well that would sit in a country like the US. You can do that under the flag of free speech? Even more cynical there are still people in the Mercosur that back Maduro even now. I can imagine left leaning people would align with a socialist government initially but still after all this happened? Let me put your names on the list of people to never trust with a democracy again.

humanrebar 9y ago
> You can do that under the flag of free speech? Not legally, but the Declaration of Independence states that it's the right thing to do sometimes. Disclaimer: I'm not informed or invested enough to have an opinion in this case, at least not yet.
- nemo44x 9y ago
  What's really great about the Declaration of Independence is that that it lays down the rights of people and then spells out in a bulleted list more or less exactaly why those rights are being violated and therefore why the rebellion is justified. However, my favorite part of that document is this: "Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security." I love it because it says to use caution and that rebelling for small things and things that will pass soon is not a just reason to rebel. And that a long standing government which is stable should be respected. But it then switches gears and says people are more inclined to not do anything about it and that revolution is in fact a very scary thing - that suffering a bit is probably better in most peoples eyes. And then the last part - when it has gone too far and the people have been abused so much that their claim to life, liberty and happiness has been taken from them under the thumb of a despot, then they must act in violent manner. Saying that, today in the USA we are quite far away from crossing the "light and transient" part so a conspiracy to overthrow the USA government would not be justified. You could make the argument Venezuela is in a transient phase as well since this is a monetary crisis created by very bad policy. However, their leader is making some pretty dubious claims to power currently, using a crisis to consolidate his parties rule on the people.
BearGoesChirp 9y ago
>You can do that under the flag of free speech? These days you can't even carry large amounts of cash in the US. Free speech as an ideal would allow for calling for violence as a last stand against oppression. As for what you can legally get away with in the US, assuming you aren't wealth enough to afford a good legal defense, you do not have any rights any more. If those in power decide to ruin your day, you have a chance of ending up in prison despite being completely innocent. Maybe the ACLU/EFF/etc. will defend you depending upon what they actually try to charge you with, but even that isn't a guarantee with how the legal system current works.
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  That's a huge exaggeration.
  - justadeveloper2 9y ago
    It's not that huge--just compare what is illegal in NY State versus most of the others. The discrepancies are rising even in the US and our freedoms are being hemmed in more and more each go around. All because people believe the lie that the government that is all-powerful can give us all the peace and security we desire.
  - wooter 9y ago
    he's not wrong. police seize more cash through civil asset forfeiture (without due process) than all robbers. its pretty sad
  - BearGoesChirp 9y ago
    You should read what happens to people who cause some high ranking police officer to develop a strong personal grudge against them. It can be very brutal, and the unlucky ones end up in prison because they took a plea deal for a few years instead of decades due to trumped up charges and possibly planted evidence.
gtirloni 9y ago
> Even more cynical there are still people in the Mercosur that back Maduro even now Definitely. Brazilian Workers' Party (ruled the country for the last 13-14 years and drove it into the worst recession in a century) just signed a letter last week offering their full support for Maduro. https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-07-31/latin-american-left-indulges-maduro https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-07-31/latin-ame...
Brakenshire 9y ago
> Even more cynical there are still people in the Mercosur that back Maduro even now. I can imagine left leaning people would align with a socialist government initially but still after all this happened? Not just Mercosur, the leader of the UK Labour party is a long term Chavez supporter, and still hasn't come out against all of this.
- wooter 9y ago
  These days, the American dream is more apt to be realized in South America, in places such as Ecuador, Venezuela and Argentina, where incomes are actually more equal today than they are in the land of Horatio Alger. Who's the banana republic now? - Bernie Sanders (on his site, https://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/must-read/close-the-gaps-disparities-that-threaten-america https://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/must-read/close-the-...)
  - Brakenshire 9y ago
    Yeah. Sanders and Corbyn are strange figureheads really. I've spoken to Labour politicians who think that Corbyn hasn't changed his mind since 1983. They all are still carrying all of this pointless and discredited Cold War era baggage. A friend of Corbyn's has praised North Korea and Stalinism, and Corbyn appointed him to a major position in his election campaign: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jeremy-corbyn-defends-andrew-murray-ex-communist-after-drafted-in-as-election-adviser-secondment-unite_uk_5919d8a4e4b07d5f6ba4bf4a http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jeremy-corbyn-defends-... They do the job of right-wing ideologues for them by conflating social democracy with communism and authoritarianism. They still have not learnt the lessons of Orwell and Solzhenitsyn about the nonsense of arbitrarily taking sides.

by dep_b 9y ago

humanrebar 9y ago

> You can do that under the flag of free speech? Not legally, but the Declaration of Independence states that it's the right thing to do sometimes. Disclaimer: I'm not informed or invested enough to have an opinion in this case, at least not yet.

nemo44x 9y ago
What's really great about the Declaration of Independence is that that it lays down the rights of people and then spells out in a bulleted list more or less exactaly why those rights are being violated and therefore why the rebellion is justified. However, my favorite part of that document is this: "Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security." I love it because it says to use caution and that rebelling for small things and things that will pass soon is not a just reason to rebel. And that a long standing government which is stable should be respected. But it then switches gears and says people are more inclined to not do anything about it and that revolution is in fact a very scary thing - that suffering a bit is probably better in most peoples eyes. And then the last part - when it has gone too far and the people have been abused so much that their claim to life, liberty and happiness has been taken from them under the thumb of a despot, then they must act in violent manner. Saying that, today in the USA we are quite far away from crossing the "light and transient" part so a conspiracy to overthrow the USA government would not be justified. You could make the argument Venezuela is in a transient phase as well since this is a monetary crisis created by very bad policy. However, their leader is making some pretty dubious claims to power currently, using a crisis to consolidate his parties rule on the people.

BearGoesChirp 9y ago

>You can do that under the flag of free speech? These days you can't even carry large amounts of cash in the US. Free speech as an ideal would allow for calling for violence as a last stand against oppression. As for what you can legally get away with in the US, assuming you aren't wealth enough to afford a good legal defense, you do not have any rights any more. If those in power decide to ruin your day, you have a chance of ending up in prison despite being completely innocent. Maybe the ACLU/EFF/etc. will defend you depending upon what they actually try to charge you with, but even that isn't a guarantee with how the legal system current works.

aaron-lebo 9y ago
That's a huge exaggeration.
- justadeveloper2 9y ago
  It's not that huge--just compare what is illegal in NY State versus most of the others. The discrepancies are rising even in the US and our freedoms are being hemmed in more and more each go around. All because people believe the lie that the government that is all-powerful can give us all the peace and security we desire.
- wooter 9y ago
  he's not wrong. police seize more cash through civil asset forfeiture (without due process) than all robbers. its pretty sad
- BearGoesChirp 9y ago
  You should read what happens to people who cause some high ranking police officer to develop a strong personal grudge against them. It can be very brutal, and the unlucky ones end up in prison because they took a plea deal for a few years instead of decades due to trumped up charges and possibly planted evidence.

gtirloni 9y ago

> Even more cynical there are still people in the Mercosur that back Maduro even now Definitely. Brazilian Workers' Party (ruled the country for the last 13-14 years and drove it into the worst recession in a century) just signed a letter last week offering their full support for Maduro. https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-07-31/latin-american-left-indulges-maduro https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-07-31/latin-ame...

Brakenshire 9y ago

> Even more cynical there are still people in the Mercosur that back Maduro even now. I can imagine left leaning people would align with a socialist government initially but still after all this happened? Not just Mercosur, the leader of the UK Labour party is a long term Chavez supporter, and still hasn't come out against all of this.

wooter 9y ago
These days, the American dream is more apt to be realized in South America, in places such as Ecuador, Venezuela and Argentina, where incomes are actually more equal today than they are in the land of Horatio Alger. Who's the banana republic now? - Bernie Sanders (on his site, https://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/must-read/close-the-gaps-disparities-that-threaten-america https://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/must-read/close-the-...)
- Brakenshire 9y ago
  Yeah. Sanders and Corbyn are strange figureheads really. I've spoken to Labour politicians who think that Corbyn hasn't changed his mind since 1983. They all are still carrying all of this pointless and discredited Cold War era baggage. A friend of Corbyn's has praised North Korea and Stalinism, and Corbyn appointed him to a major position in his election campaign: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jeremy-corbyn-defends-andrew-murray-ex-communist-after-drafted-in-as-election-adviser-secondment-unite_uk_5919d8a4e4b07d5f6ba4bf4a http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jeremy-corbyn-defends-... They do the job of right-wing ideologues for them by conflating social democracy with communism and authoritarianism. They still have not learnt the lessons of Orwell and Solzhenitsyn about the nonsense of arbitrarily taking sides.