6 ms·

Save NYC sublets and vacation rentals from anti-competitive bill

118 points by rantfoil 16y ago

hugh3 16y ago
A worthwhile cause perhaps, but flagged nonetheless.
- rantfoil 16y ago
  A whole class of Internet startups, including AirBnb (YC-funded) are affected by this anti-competitive legislation pushed forward by big-money NYC hotel interests.
  - earl 16y ago
    And people who don't want bloody temporary neighbors who have no incentive not to be dicks. Or who are visiting cities and, more often than not, want to party. Who often don't understand what it's like to live in NYC where apartments are right next to each other and just how much sound carries or how much sound they're making; drunk people are not quiet people. Or SF where I live in a nicer building but can still touch my neighbor's house when I stretch my arms out. If they want to help people do whatever they want with their houses in the country or in suburbs, Airbnb should knock themselves out. But in the city, where they help introduce really obnoxious neighbors, they should go away. ps -- when I lived in Yorkville, my gf and I paid $3700 for our apartment. If you think I have exactly no tolerance for loud neighbors, well, you're right. That's not even on the high end of middle class housing in that area.
    - hussong 16y ago
      I'm going to play devil's advocate here: Would you rather have a hostel open up next door?
      - jacquesm 16y ago
        At the rent he's paying I highly doubt a hostel would be profitable in that area.
      - deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
      - earl 16y ago
        There will never be a hostel. That's why it's important to go to zoning board meetings / your local planning council. Just skim the meeting notes once a month and if there are new businesses opening near you, read what they are! In general, there is a place for people to stay and party -- and that's in business districts. Or in hotels that are subject to increased sound insulation requirements and further regulatory requirements requiring noise, with penalties for not enforcing compliance from the guests up to and including loss of licence.
        eru 16y ago
        I find it funny that Americans that such store in zoning laws.
    - robryan 16y ago
      Couldn't the same thing happen though with people putting up out of town relatives or friends? The people coming through are temporary but your neighbours that are putting them up are permanent and should be in a position to set the rules. I'd assume this has a lot more to do with hotels being undercut.
      - _delirium 16y ago
        There are at least two pretty different kinds of rentals that go on on AirBnB, though: 1) people who live in the apartment sometimes taking in visitors for a few days; and 2) people who don't live in the apartment, renting out an apartment on a regular basis. Sometimes those in #2 get consolidated so many such units are operated by one person, making more or less a quasi-hotel. And having hotel units next door to you is somewhat different than having an apartment with a long-term tenant next door to you, which is presumably what you signed up expecting.
        robryan 16y ago
        I have little problem with them changing the rules on the second situation you listed but the first is the one that's problematic.
    - pmcginn 16y ago
      You are exactly the type of person I would hate to live next to, the type who moves to a city from the suburbs and tries to keep all the benefits of both. Cities are chaotic. Cities are loud. How about if you want peace and quiet, you move somewhere where they occur naturally, like the middle of nowhere?
      - yardie 16y ago
        The same thing could be said of you. The type that moves from the suburbs and expects to have the benefits of both. Being able to be as loud as they want because no one can hear them in their single family home. When you're in the city you have neighbors. Some are there decades and the walls seperating you can be paper thing as far as sound travels. Cities can be loud during the day, but at night the businesses are closed and the residents are still there. Whether you are subletter, leasee, or owner keep in mind your neighbors can shut you down so be mindful of them as well. Anyway I don't like bills that restrict people's free will like this. But from the comments on NYT I see some people support it because they don't want their building treated like a hotel. If airbnb what this bill taken down they better do something fast because, although the hotel industry wrote it, it is gaining support amongst residents.
        benpbenp 16y ago
        > Anyway I don't like bills that restrict people's free will like this. Isn't the point of all legislation to restrict people's free will in one way or another? (Just a quibble; I realize this statement is not central to your comment.)
        yardie 16y ago
        Well there are some freedoms that have to be denied for the greater good; disallowing strangling your obnoxious neighbor, flinging shit onto the street, dumping in rivers, or pedophilia. It's part and parcel of living in a "free" society. I give up some freedoms so that everyone and I can get along.
        16y ago
    - Goladus 16y ago
      I have no experience with AirBnB, but my roommate has been a Couch Surfing (http://www.couchsurfing.org/ http://www.couchsurfing.org/) host and has never had a problem. Most of the time it's not actually people looking to party, or at least not party in their rooms. It's mostly people traveling on small budgets leaving small footprints.
wdewind 16y ago
I think AirBnB et al need to make it clear that they are attempting to BE the regulatory system. The major argument behind bills like this is that regulation is a nightmare, and it's not an unreasonable one. Unless of course you understand how AirBnB works, and the kind of regulation it provides.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
Encosia 16y ago
Services like AirBnB seem interesting, but I'm curious if they pay all the same taxes that hotels do. If hotels are paying to subsidize things like stadiums, but AirBnB can get away with avoiding that, I can see how the hotels would see that as unfair and lobby accordingly.
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  If that were the real problem, the solution would be better enforcement of tax law rather than making the competition flat out illegal.
  - Gormo 16y ago
    Or better yet, repeal the taxes that force hotel owners to subsidize stadiums, etc., which create the barrier to entry that leads to unlicensed hotels existing.
_delirium 16y ago
I'd be more in favor of activism on this point if AirBnB made any effort to limit their rentals to owner-occupied apartments. Someone renting out a spare bedroom in their apartment, or a spare couch, is one thing, but someone renting out a dozen apartments that they have never lived in, as basically an unlicensed hotel, is quite different. A good first step would be imposing a limit of one rental property per person on the site, and making at least basic efforts to enforce it. To be fair, this is basically an NYC problem. I haven't seen nearly the same level of shadiness on AirBnB in other cities, where people renting out spare rooms and couches seems to be the norm. But in NYC, a lot of the AirBnB listings are unlicensed hotels and unlicensed hostels, not people renting out spare rooms. I wouldn't be surprised if a good number were affiliated with organized-crime groups, either, since those are the main operators of unlicensed hotels.
- mseebach 16y ago
  > I haven't seen nearly the same level of shadiness on AirBnB in other cities London, too.
- anamax 16y ago
  > But in NYC, a lot of the AirBnB listings are unlicensed hotels and unlicensed hostels, not people renting out spare rooms. Why do you care? > I wouldn't be surprised if a good number were affiliated with organized-crime groups, either, since those are the main operators of unlicensed hotels. When renting a room is outlawed, only outlaws will rent rooms.
  - _delirium 16y ago
    On the first part: because unlicensed hotels are generally unsanitary and unsafe to stay at, are often run by shady operators who may rip you off or rob you, and are a nuisance to neighbors. Also, it's essentially misrepresentation, because AirBnB portrays itself as a place where you rent out someone's room from a real person, but then you're actually renting out a room in a fleabag hotel. If I was looking for low-end hotels I wouldn't be on AirBnB!
pvg 16y ago
So their examples are someone illegally subletting their apartment (find me a Brooklyn waiter whose lease allows subletting) and someone who benefits from the taxed, regulated high hotel prices to by renting their spare room short-term. It's not terribly convincing, noble as the cause might be.
- isamuel 16y ago
  The right to sublease is guaranteed by New York's landlord-tenant law. "A tenant renting a residence pursuant to an existing lease in a dwelling having four or more residential units shall have the right to sublease his premises subject to the written consent of the landlord in advance of the subletting. Such consent shall not be unreasonably withheld." N.Y.S. Real Property Law, Section 226-b(2)(a). So that Brooklyn waiter shouldn't be too hard to find.
  - jbooth 16y ago
    Not a right, but it's not illegal, either. "Subject to written consent" seems pretty reasonable since the landlord does own the place.
  - tptacek 16y ago
    Landlords in NYC are legally entitled to credit-check subtenants, among many other details.
  - earl 16y ago
    I don't know where your reading of the law is going wrong, but I know that isn't true at all. For example, our coop did not allow subleasing of rentals.

118 points by rantfoil 16y ago

hugh3 16y ago

A worthwhile cause perhaps, but flagged nonetheless.

rantfoil 16y ago
A whole class of Internet startups, including AirBnb (YC-funded) are affected by this anti-competitive legislation pushed forward by big-money NYC hotel interests.
- earl 16y ago
  And people who don't want bloody temporary neighbors who have no incentive not to be dicks. Or who are visiting cities and, more often than not, want to party. Who often don't understand what it's like to live in NYC where apartments are right next to each other and just how much sound carries or how much sound they're making; drunk people are not quiet people. Or SF where I live in a nicer building but can still touch my neighbor's house when I stretch my arms out. If they want to help people do whatever they want with their houses in the country or in suburbs, Airbnb should knock themselves out. But in the city, where they help introduce really obnoxious neighbors, they should go away. ps -- when I lived in Yorkville, my gf and I paid $3700 for our apartment. If you think I have exactly no tolerance for loud neighbors, well, you're right. That's not even on the high end of middle class housing in that area.
  - hussong 16y ago
    I'm going to play devil's advocate here: Would you rather have a hostel open up next door?
    - jacquesm 16y ago
      At the rent he's paying I highly doubt a hostel would be profitable in that area.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
    - earl 16y ago
      There will never be a hostel. That's why it's important to go to zoning board meetings / your local planning council. Just skim the meeting notes once a month and if there are new businesses opening near you, read what they are! In general, there is a place for people to stay and party -- and that's in business districts. Or in hotels that are subject to increased sound insulation requirements and further regulatory requirements requiring noise, with penalties for not enforcing compliance from the guests up to and including loss of licence.
      - eru 16y ago
        I find it funny that Americans that such store in zoning laws.
  - robryan 16y ago
    Couldn't the same thing happen though with people putting up out of town relatives or friends? The people coming through are temporary but your neighbours that are putting them up are permanent and should be in a position to set the rules. I'd assume this has a lot more to do with hotels being undercut.
    - _delirium 16y ago
      There are at least two pretty different kinds of rentals that go on on AirBnB, though: 1) people who live in the apartment sometimes taking in visitors for a few days; and 2) people who don't live in the apartment, renting out an apartment on a regular basis. Sometimes those in #2 get consolidated so many such units are operated by one person, making more or less a quasi-hotel. And having hotel units next door to you is somewhat different than having an apartment with a long-term tenant next door to you, which is presumably what you signed up expecting.
      - robryan 16y ago
        I have little problem with them changing the rules on the second situation you listed but the first is the one that's problematic.
  - pmcginn 16y ago
    You are exactly the type of person I would hate to live next to, the type who moves to a city from the suburbs and tries to keep all the benefits of both. Cities are chaotic. Cities are loud. How about if you want peace and quiet, you move somewhere where they occur naturally, like the middle of nowhere?
    - yardie 16y ago
      The same thing could be said of you. The type that moves from the suburbs and expects to have the benefits of both. Being able to be as loud as they want because no one can hear them in their single family home. When you're in the city you have neighbors. Some are there decades and the walls seperating you can be paper thing as far as sound travels. Cities can be loud during the day, but at night the businesses are closed and the residents are still there. Whether you are subletter, leasee, or owner keep in mind your neighbors can shut you down so be mindful of them as well. Anyway I don't like bills that restrict people's free will like this. But from the comments on NYT I see some people support it because they don't want their building treated like a hotel. If airbnb what this bill taken down they better do something fast because, although the hotel industry wrote it, it is gaining support amongst residents.
      - benpbenp 16y ago
        > Anyway I don't like bills that restrict people's free will like this. Isn't the point of all legislation to restrict people's free will in one way or another? (Just a quibble; I realize this statement is not central to your comment.)
        yardie 16y ago
        Well there are some freedoms that have to be denied for the greater good; disallowing strangling your obnoxious neighbor, flinging shit onto the street, dumping in rivers, or pedophilia. It's part and parcel of living in a "free" society. I give up some freedoms so that everyone and I can get along.
        16y ago
  - Goladus 16y ago
    I have no experience with AirBnB, but my roommate has been a Couch Surfing (http://www.couchsurfing.org/ http://www.couchsurfing.org/) host and has never had a problem. Most of the time it's not actually people looking to party, or at least not party in their rooms. It's mostly people traveling on small budgets leaving small footprints.

wdewind 16y ago

I think AirBnB et al need to make it clear that they are attempting to BE the regulatory system. The major argument behind bills like this is that regulation is a nightmare, and it's not an unreasonable one. Unless of course you understand how AirBnB works, and the kind of regulation it provides.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

Encosia 16y ago

Services like AirBnB seem interesting, but I'm curious if they pay all the same taxes that hotels do. If hotels are paying to subsidize things like stadiums, but AirBnB can get away with avoiding that, I can see how the hotels would see that as unfair and lobby accordingly.

yummyfajitas 16y ago
If that were the real problem, the solution would be better enforcement of tax law rather than making the competition flat out illegal.
- Gormo 16y ago
  Or better yet, repeal the taxes that force hotel owners to subsidize stadiums, etc., which create the barrier to entry that leads to unlicensed hotels existing.

_delirium 16y ago

I'd be more in favor of activism on this point if AirBnB made any effort to limit their rentals to owner-occupied apartments. Someone renting out a spare bedroom in their apartment, or a spare couch, is one thing, but someone renting out a dozen apartments that they have never lived in, as basically an unlicensed hotel, is quite different. A good first step would be imposing a limit of one rental property per person on the site, and making at least basic efforts to enforce it. To be fair, this is basically an NYC problem. I haven't seen nearly the same level of shadiness on AirBnB in other cities, where people renting out spare rooms and couches seems to be the norm. But in NYC, a lot of the AirBnB listings are unlicensed hotels and unlicensed hostels, not people renting out spare rooms. I wouldn't be surprised if a good number were affiliated with organized-crime groups, either, since those are the main operators of unlicensed hotels.

mseebach 16y ago
> I haven't seen nearly the same level of shadiness on AirBnB in other cities London, too.
anamax 16y ago
> But in NYC, a lot of the AirBnB listings are unlicensed hotels and unlicensed hostels, not people renting out spare rooms. Why do you care? > I wouldn't be surprised if a good number were affiliated with organized-crime groups, either, since those are the main operators of unlicensed hotels. When renting a room is outlawed, only outlaws will rent rooms.
- _delirium 16y ago
  On the first part: because unlicensed hotels are generally unsanitary and unsafe to stay at, are often run by shady operators who may rip you off or rob you, and are a nuisance to neighbors. Also, it's essentially misrepresentation, because AirBnB portrays itself as a place where you rent out someone's room from a real person, but then you're actually renting out a room in a fleabag hotel. If I was looking for low-end hotels I wouldn't be on AirBnB!

pvg 16y ago

So their examples are someone illegally subletting their apartment (find me a Brooklyn waiter whose lease allows subletting) and someone who benefits from the taxed, regulated high hotel prices to by renting their spare room short-term. It's not terribly convincing, noble as the cause might be.

isamuel 16y ago
The right to sublease is guaranteed by New York's landlord-tenant law. "A tenant renting a residence pursuant to an existing lease in a dwelling having four or more residential units shall have the right to sublease his premises subject to the written consent of the landlord in advance of the subletting. Such consent shall not be unreasonably withheld." N.Y.S. Real Property Law, Section 226-b(2)(a). So that Brooklyn waiter shouldn't be too hard to find.
- jbooth 16y ago
  Not a right, but it's not illegal, either. "Subject to written consent" seems pretty reasonable since the landlord does own the place.
- tptacek 16y ago
  Landlords in NYC are legally entitled to credit-check subtenants, among many other details.
- earl 16y ago
  I don't know where your reading of the law is going wrong, but I know that isn't true at all. For example, our coop did not allow subleasing of rentals.