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Well, I only saw a model X on Cebit, although the materials are good quality, the build quality is poor for the price. Then I saw a hybrid Porsche, and the X fe

Well, I only saw a model X on Cebit, although the materials are good quality, the build quality is poor for the price. Then I saw a hybrid Porsche, and the X felt like a higher mid class suv in comparison. Worry not about German carmakers, they have infinite money to throw at any project. Once they decide to go serious about electric, Tesla won't be able to keep up with the competition. Don't get me wrong, I root for everyone, mainly for our future, but stop daydreaming.

_ph_ 9y ago
The German carmakers have great production facilities, technical abilities and deep pockets. Unfortunately, their mind set has been focussed on selling their dirty Diesel cars at all means. So I am doubtful to their current commitment to electrical cars, but who knows. Also, I don't see them build up battery capacities on the scale Tesla does. So, I really wish that they give Tesla a great competition, but so far I am not too optimistic.
- holydude 9y ago
  Well that's the thing they do not really have deep pockets or technical abilities. Building a platform, an electric future generation car is way different than building a car with classic engine.
  - struppi 9y ago
    And if you believe Elon Musk's own words, it's significantly easier ;) Joking aside - Yes, German car makers are behind on electric vehicles, but all (except mercedes now) have one. They are late, they probably are at a disadvantage, but IMHO the game is not over yet.
- c3833174 9y ago
  >their mind set has been focussed on selling their dirty Diesel cars at all means Or maybe it's because that's what people buy, since diesel is cheaper than the upfront cost of an electric car.
  - _ph_ 9y ago
    Yes, they are cheap to buy, because they don't have a working exhaust cleaning and don't comply to the emission laws. I think it is a big fallacy to claim that Diesel cars are so popular, if you consider how the public has been mislead about the illegal levels of pollution produced by the cars and that they have been sold without a working exhaust cleaning. Besides that affordable electric cars are a very recent thing, are Diesel engine cars going to be popular, if they are more expensive to buy (1-2k) and operate (regular AdBlue refill)?
    - c3833174 9y ago
      >Besides that affordable electric cars are a very recent thing They might not have been practical, but affordable lead-acid based EVs already existed during the rise of small diesel. >more expensive to buy (1-2k) and operate (regular AdBlue refill)? Adblue is pretty cheap and isn't going to be used up that fast, most people are more concerned about the filter blocking up because of short commutes not leaving enough time for it to fully warmup.
flexie 9y ago
German car makers don't have infinite money. They run huge operations on tiny margins and cannot afford to cannibalize the sale of their upper-end cars with cheaper electric cars. The Model 3 is comparable to the C-Class in both price and size but vastly outperforms the C-Class on driving performance if the reviews are to be believed. The bling-bling leather, chrome and wood of the German high-end cars is more luxurious, but is not for everyone. Let's see. My guess is as good as yours but I think the Germans will bleed if they don't transition to EVs very fast. If Tesla has the market for itself in all of 2018-2020, it might be too late for VW, BMW and Mercedes-Benz. Right now, they have plans and talk, but not a single competitive EV on the market, no fleet of hundreds of thousands of self driving cars recording and learning, no network of superchargers, no thousands of talented EV and AI engineers, no remote update, no battery factories. I sure hope they wake up. Competition will only be good for us consumers.
- bgarbiak 9y ago
  There are many other cars that could be compared to Model 3. Mazdas, VWs, Hyundais, Hondas. If we take only size, price, performance and interior quality into consideration then Model 3 is certainly not the best choice. But it's an EV. And others are not.
  - Thlom 9y ago
    There's a lot of EV's comparable to the Model 3 in both price and range. There's a lot of EV's comparable to the Model 3 in range and price. VW e-golf costs about the same (or less) with comparable range and size. Hyundai IONIQ is cheaper with about the same range and size. Then you have the ugly EV's like Nissan Leaf and Kia Soul. Cheaper and with comparable range and size (perhaps a bit smaller trunk).
    - grecy 9y ago
      > There's a lot of EV's comparable to the Model 3 in both price and range No, there isn't. Here's a chart made by a Redditor comparing price with range of all the Evs on the market. Checkout how much of an outlier the Model 3 Long Range is. Even the Standard Model 3 has much more range than all the other EVs except the Bolt, and other Teslas. http://i.imgur.com/M4o8czW.png http://i.imgur.com/M4o8czW.png
martin_bech 9y ago
I somewhat agree on build quality, but the germans will loose infinite amounts of money, if the 3series etc loose out to the Tesla Model 3 in sales. Remember Nokia? Blackberry? Ericcson?
- 24gttghh 9y ago
  None of those companies are German? Finnish, Canadian (now Indonesian), and Swedish; respectively.
krylon 9y ago
> Worry not about German carmakers, they have infinite money to throw at any project. Once they decide to go serious about electric, Tesla won't be able to keep up with the competition. If they have not come around by now, I seriously doubt they will make serious investments in electric cars unless the government forces them.
- kagamine 9y ago
  They have hybrids of current models so assume that they are hedging their bets and taking it slow. Heavy investment in the wrong direction could destroy a company even the size of VW group. Tesla is a youngling with heavy investment and no guaranteed future. Like so many tech firms it could be gone in a flash. Once the Euro EV subsidies and tax breaks disappear as the have begun to do in Denmark Tesla will be on a level playing field. Expect the opposing teams to foul if it means scoring goals.
  - blkhawk 9y ago
    "hedging their bets"????? Thats like falling out of an airplane and not pulling the paracute because you don't know exactly how far away the ground is and if its soft or not.
    - kagamine 9y ago
      More like parachutes are deemed environmentally wrong and need to be replaced by something, so parachute manufacturers are coming up with wing suits and big bits of foam and then Parachutes_International are thinking were do we put our money and how do we change our 100 years of parachute manufacturing industry and what will SuperDryChutesJpn do and what do consumers want and where did I put my glasses?
- dageshi 9y ago
  Two "governments" already have, French and British governments will ban sales of combustion engine cars in 2040, those are two big markets for German cars.
Denzel 9y ago
I find this thread interesting: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14706548 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14706548 In short, odds are greater that Tesla will exist in a post-combustion world than established automakers. I mean look at the battery supply chain alone. For them to deliver at Tesla's scale, they'd need enough batteries, which, right now, would require major investment a la Tesla's Gigafactory: which is set to produce more batteries at one factory than the entire world's current output... all to support Tesla products. At what phase are the established automakers in their infrastructure investments? They're all years behind. And I'm afraid they won't catch up.
- dx034 9y ago
  Isn't BMWs new battery production at a similar scale? The main difference between Tesla and big manufacturers is not necessarily factory size but marketing. The gigafactory is huge as one building. As a car manufacturing plant it's not that big, compared to the cities that some of the other manufacturers have.

_ph_ 9y ago

The German carmakers have great production facilities, technical abilities and deep pockets. Unfortunately, their mind set has been focussed on selling their dirty Diesel cars at all means. So I am doubtful to their current commitment to electrical cars, but who knows. Also, I don't see them build up battery capacities on the scale Tesla does. So, I really wish that they give Tesla a great competition, but so far I am not too optimistic.

holydude 9y ago
Well that's the thing they do not really have deep pockets or technical abilities. Building a platform, an electric future generation car is way different than building a car with classic engine.
- struppi 9y ago
  And if you believe Elon Musk's own words, it's significantly easier ;) Joking aside - Yes, German car makers are behind on electric vehicles, but all (except mercedes now) have one. They are late, they probably are at a disadvantage, but IMHO the game is not over yet.
c3833174 9y ago
>their mind set has been focussed on selling their dirty Diesel cars at all means Or maybe it's because that's what people buy, since diesel is cheaper than the upfront cost of an electric car.
- _ph_ 9y ago
  Yes, they are cheap to buy, because they don't have a working exhaust cleaning and don't comply to the emission laws. I think it is a big fallacy to claim that Diesel cars are so popular, if you consider how the public has been mislead about the illegal levels of pollution produced by the cars and that they have been sold without a working exhaust cleaning. Besides that affordable electric cars are a very recent thing, are Diesel engine cars going to be popular, if they are more expensive to buy (1-2k) and operate (regular AdBlue refill)?
  - c3833174 9y ago
    >Besides that affordable electric cars are a very recent thing They might not have been practical, but affordable lead-acid based EVs already existed during the rise of small diesel. >more expensive to buy (1-2k) and operate (regular AdBlue refill)? Adblue is pretty cheap and isn't going to be used up that fast, most people are more concerned about the filter blocking up because of short commutes not leaving enough time for it to fully warmup.

flexie 9y ago

German car makers don't have infinite money. They run huge operations on tiny margins and cannot afford to cannibalize the sale of their upper-end cars with cheaper electric cars. The Model 3 is comparable to the C-Class in both price and size but vastly outperforms the C-Class on driving performance if the reviews are to be believed. The bling-bling leather, chrome and wood of the German high-end cars is more luxurious, but is not for everyone. Let's see. My guess is as good as yours but I think the Germans will bleed if they don't transition to EVs very fast. If Tesla has the market for itself in all of 2018-2020, it might be too late for VW, BMW and Mercedes-Benz. Right now, they have plans and talk, but not a single competitive EV on the market, no fleet of hundreds of thousands of self driving cars recording and learning, no network of superchargers, no thousands of talented EV and AI engineers, no remote update, no battery factories. I sure hope they wake up. Competition will only be good for us consumers.

bgarbiak 9y ago
There are many other cars that could be compared to Model 3. Mazdas, VWs, Hyundais, Hondas. If we take only size, price, performance and interior quality into consideration then Model 3 is certainly not the best choice. But it's an EV. And others are not.
- Thlom 9y ago
  There's a lot of EV's comparable to the Model 3 in both price and range. There's a lot of EV's comparable to the Model 3 in range and price. VW e-golf costs about the same (or less) with comparable range and size. Hyundai IONIQ is cheaper with about the same range and size. Then you have the ugly EV's like Nissan Leaf and Kia Soul. Cheaper and with comparable range and size (perhaps a bit smaller trunk).
  - grecy 9y ago
    > There's a lot of EV's comparable to the Model 3 in both price and range No, there isn't. Here's a chart made by a Redditor comparing price with range of all the Evs on the market. Checkout how much of an outlier the Model 3 Long Range is. Even the Standard Model 3 has much more range than all the other EVs except the Bolt, and other Teslas. http://i.imgur.com/M4o8czW.png http://i.imgur.com/M4o8czW.png

martin_bech 9y ago

I somewhat agree on build quality, but the germans will loose infinite amounts of money, if the 3series etc loose out to the Tesla Model 3 in sales. Remember Nokia? Blackberry? Ericcson?

24gttghh 9y ago
None of those companies are German? Finnish, Canadian (now Indonesian), and Swedish; respectively.

krylon 9y ago

> Worry not about German carmakers, they have infinite money to throw at any project. Once they decide to go serious about electric, Tesla won't be able to keep up with the competition. If they have not come around by now, I seriously doubt they will make serious investments in electric cars unless the government forces them.

kagamine 9y ago
They have hybrids of current models so assume that they are hedging their bets and taking it slow. Heavy investment in the wrong direction could destroy a company even the size of VW group. Tesla is a youngling with heavy investment and no guaranteed future. Like so many tech firms it could be gone in a flash. Once the Euro EV subsidies and tax breaks disappear as the have begun to do in Denmark Tesla will be on a level playing field. Expect the opposing teams to foul if it means scoring goals.
- blkhawk 9y ago
  "hedging their bets"????? Thats like falling out of an airplane and not pulling the paracute because you don't know exactly how far away the ground is and if its soft or not.
  - kagamine 9y ago
    More like parachutes are deemed environmentally wrong and need to be replaced by something, so parachute manufacturers are coming up with wing suits and big bits of foam and then Parachutes_International are thinking were do we put our money and how do we change our 100 years of parachute manufacturing industry and what will SuperDryChutesJpn do and what do consumers want and where did I put my glasses?
dageshi 9y ago
Two "governments" already have, French and British governments will ban sales of combustion engine cars in 2040, those are two big markets for German cars.

Denzel 9y ago

I find this thread interesting: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14706548 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14706548 In short, odds are greater that Tesla will exist in a post-combustion world than established automakers. I mean look at the battery supply chain alone. For them to deliver at Tesla's scale, they'd need enough batteries, which, right now, would require major investment a la Tesla's Gigafactory: which is set to produce more batteries at one factory than the entire world's current output... all to support Tesla products. At what phase are the established automakers in their infrastructure investments? They're all years behind. And I'm afraid they won't catch up.

dx034 9y ago
Isn't BMWs new battery production at a similar scale? The main difference between Tesla and big manufacturers is not necessarily factory size but marketing. The gigafactory is huge as one building. As a car manufacturing plant it's not that big, compared to the cities that some of the other manufacturers have.