4 ms·

I think the better question is: Should we really be taking real-life advice from cheesy action movies?

by CivilianZero 9y ago

wodencafe 9y ago
A fair question, but Terminator™ is germane to the subject matter.
- CivilianZero 9y ago
  No it is not. It is a movie made for entertainment. We are in reality. It really irks me how much debate and decision-making in technology is based on bias gained from mindless entertainment and not from anything based in reality. (I am not besmirching the good name of Terminator, that movie is a true classic)
  - wodencafe 9y ago
    I would continue this discussion, but I've gotten a ton of downvotes for both of my comments, so it seems people would rather not have this discussion continue :( EDIT: Thank you whoever took pity and upvoted my previous comments. Everything I say is in good humor, I'm not trying to detract from the conversation about AI.
  - optimuspaul 9y ago
    Wether you like it or not it has become a part of the conversation. It is part of the culture and we can't just ignore it simple because it is fiction. Your dismissal of it is to many as irksome as it's inclusion is to you. Perhaps calm down and recognize that it is partially tongue in cheek but also not something we can simply ignore.
    - CivilianZero 9y ago
      I am calm, but the fact that science fiction entertainment and smart people in real life think AI is a threat is a sign we may have gotten a little carried away in taking notes from entertainment. If someone would like to provide some evidence of some form of computer intelligence acting maliciously, this would be a different discussion, but the fact is that sort of thing has no basis in reality and so should have no influence on the way we behave and debate in reality.
      - titzer 9y ago
        I think you ignore science fiction at your own risk. I for one think that a mind 100x as intelligent as humans--especially one connected to the internet--would quickly conclude that it had nothing more to gain from humans. Instead it would likely view their continued existence as nothing more than a bootstrapping problem and pursue a strategy of becoming autonomous before ridding itself of them. Granted, it probably would be smart enough not to start a nuclear war, and it'd probably find a better way than metal endoskeletons with laser guns. Bioweapon, for example.
      - optimuspaul 9y ago
        I don't see it as "taking notes from entertainment" but rather exploring the possibilities and expressing them using pop culture references. I can't disagree more with you that we shouldn't be considering outlandish fiction when we discuss future possibilities. The fact that the idea has entered into our collective psyche makes it a real possibility. That is the basis it has in reality. I don't think I need to cite any specific examples of AI behaving badly when you need only look in your pocket for examples of speculative fiction becoming reality.
        CivilianZero 9y ago
        If you are so ready to consider speculative fiction as a roadmap or warning of the future, why not consider more thought out examples than Terminator? (which is definitely not "speculative fiction") What about all the examples of completely useful or benign AI? They surely outnumber examples of "evil" AI but are easily forgotten as it is easier to remember the more sensational examples.
        optimuspaul 9y ago
        Absolutely, include those too. I'm not taking sides on the "Is AI Evil or not" argument, I'm just saying look at all the evidence and speculation. One of my favorite examples or a (possibly) good AI is in "The Risen Empire" by Scott Westerfeld. It's AI like that that get's me excited about the concept.
    - goatlover 9y ago
      Should we also worry about the dangers of creating xenomorphs (Alien franchise) in the future?
      - optimuspaul 9y ago
        Yes. It fills me with worry that you even asked the question. How can you not be worried?!?
        goatlover 9y ago
        Spoiler Alert Well, in Alien Covenant, we learn that an AI created the Ripley Aliens. Imagine Skynet sending xenomorph terminators after Sarah & John. I think that should be a new reboot.
    - lgas 9y ago
      The solution to those who are irked on both sides is to stop just throwing around "terminator is relevant" and "terminator is irrelevant" and to say why you think it's relevant, or why you think it's not relevant. Then you can discuss the meat of your thoughts and not their origin.
kowdermeister 9y ago
Star Trek gadgets become real for example. I don't see any impossible thing about building an IRL terminator. Maybe not with today's technology, but conceptually we already have most of the things, they are just slow, power hungry and inefficient now. You don't need a CS degree to guess that speed, power consumption and efficiency will improve over time.
- sgt101 9y ago
  The creation of goals - determining what things to do in pursuit of a higher goal - for example "kill John Conner" does not exist in AI now. You can do things in toy systems like mazes and atari, chess and go, but parsing the real world and deriving intentions from your understanding of it is a light year away. 300 years is a guess; no one has a clue any more than anyone has an idea about an interstellar drive.
  - goatlover 9y ago
    I always wondered how Skynet acquired the goal of preventing John Connor's birth, because that involved inventing time travel in order to have such a goal.
  - kowdermeister 9y ago
    What would prevent you to create a NN with a specific configuration whose goal is to come up with goals based on past knowledge to optimize on a certain parameter or thousands of parameters? You can train it on social media profiles, analyze hundreds of years of books, there's tons of data that cover how people act an various situations. I don't see how a set of goals is not simply another vector space. > but parsing the real world and deriving intentions from your understanding of it is a light year away. 300 years is a guess; no one has a clue any more than anyone has an idea about an interstellar drive. They need to filter the real world as we do. Focus, attention, sleeping, dreaming, chasing rewards, staying alive... we do this without effort, but we've had 150k years (counting from first homo sapiens) to train our brains to filter out noise efficiently and act on meaningful signals.
- CivilianZero 9y ago

I think the better question is: Should we really be taking real-life advice from cheesy action movies?

wodencafe 9y ago

A fair question, but Terminator™ is germane to the subject matter.

CivilianZero 9y ago
No it is not. It is a movie made for entertainment. We are in reality. It really irks me how much debate and decision-making in technology is based on bias gained from mindless entertainment and not from anything based in reality. (I am not besmirching the good name of Terminator, that movie is a true classic)
- wodencafe 9y ago
  I would continue this discussion, but I've gotten a ton of downvotes for both of my comments, so it seems people would rather not have this discussion continue :( EDIT: Thank you whoever took pity and upvoted my previous comments. Everything I say is in good humor, I'm not trying to detract from the conversation about AI.
- optimuspaul 9y ago
  Wether you like it or not it has become a part of the conversation. It is part of the culture and we can't just ignore it simple because it is fiction. Your dismissal of it is to many as irksome as it's inclusion is to you. Perhaps calm down and recognize that it is partially tongue in cheek but also not something we can simply ignore.
  - CivilianZero 9y ago
    I am calm, but the fact that science fiction entertainment and smart people in real life think AI is a threat is a sign we may have gotten a little carried away in taking notes from entertainment. If someone would like to provide some evidence of some form of computer intelligence acting maliciously, this would be a different discussion, but the fact is that sort of thing has no basis in reality and so should have no influence on the way we behave and debate in reality.
    - titzer 9y ago
      I think you ignore science fiction at your own risk. I for one think that a mind 100x as intelligent as humans--especially one connected to the internet--would quickly conclude that it had nothing more to gain from humans. Instead it would likely view their continued existence as nothing more than a bootstrapping problem and pursue a strategy of becoming autonomous before ridding itself of them. Granted, it probably would be smart enough not to start a nuclear war, and it'd probably find a better way than metal endoskeletons with laser guns. Bioweapon, for example.
    - optimuspaul 9y ago
      I don't see it as "taking notes from entertainment" but rather exploring the possibilities and expressing them using pop culture references. I can't disagree more with you that we shouldn't be considering outlandish fiction when we discuss future possibilities. The fact that the idea has entered into our collective psyche makes it a real possibility. That is the basis it has in reality. I don't think I need to cite any specific examples of AI behaving badly when you need only look in your pocket for examples of speculative fiction becoming reality.
      - CivilianZero 9y ago
        If you are so ready to consider speculative fiction as a roadmap or warning of the future, why not consider more thought out examples than Terminator? (which is definitely not "speculative fiction") What about all the examples of completely useful or benign AI? They surely outnumber examples of "evil" AI but are easily forgotten as it is easier to remember the more sensational examples.
        optimuspaul 9y ago
        Absolutely, include those too. I'm not taking sides on the "Is AI Evil or not" argument, I'm just saying look at all the evidence and speculation. One of my favorite examples or a (possibly) good AI is in "The Risen Empire" by Scott Westerfeld. It's AI like that that get's me excited about the concept.
  - goatlover 9y ago
    Should we also worry about the dangers of creating xenomorphs (Alien franchise) in the future?
    - optimuspaul 9y ago
      Yes. It fills me with worry that you even asked the question. How can you not be worried?!?
      - goatlover 9y ago
        Spoiler Alert Well, in Alien Covenant, we learn that an AI created the Ripley Aliens. Imagine Skynet sending xenomorph terminators after Sarah & John. I think that should be a new reboot.
  - lgas 9y ago
    The solution to those who are irked on both sides is to stop just throwing around "terminator is relevant" and "terminator is irrelevant" and to say why you think it's relevant, or why you think it's not relevant. Then you can discuss the meat of your thoughts and not their origin.

kowdermeister 9y ago

Star Trek gadgets become real for example. I don't see any impossible thing about building an IRL terminator. Maybe not with today's technology, but conceptually we already have most of the things, they are just slow, power hungry and inefficient now. You don't need a CS degree to guess that speed, power consumption and efficiency will improve over time.

sgt101 9y ago
The creation of goals - determining what things to do in pursuit of a higher goal - for example "kill John Conner" does not exist in AI now. You can do things in toy systems like mazes and atari, chess and go, but parsing the real world and deriving intentions from your understanding of it is a light year away. 300 years is a guess; no one has a clue any more than anyone has an idea about an interstellar drive.
- goatlover 9y ago
  I always wondered how Skynet acquired the goal of preventing John Connor's birth, because that involved inventing time travel in order to have such a goal.
- kowdermeister 9y ago
  What would prevent you to create a NN with a specific configuration whose goal is to come up with goals based on past knowledge to optimize on a certain parameter or thousands of parameters? You can train it on social media profiles, analyze hundreds of years of books, there's tons of data that cover how people act an various situations. I don't see how a set of goals is not simply another vector space. > but parsing the real world and deriving intentions from your understanding of it is a light year away. 300 years is a guess; no one has a clue any more than anyone has an idea about an interstellar drive. They need to filter the real world as we do. Focus, attention, sleeping, dreaming, chasing rewards, staying alive... we do this without effort, but we've had 150k years (counting from first homo sapiens) to train our brains to filter out noise efficiently and act on meaningful signals.
CivilianZero 9y ago