6 ms·

Well there's two ways this can go down. Either these things that we all do become illegal and we're all criminals and the government uses it as a form of repre

by Swizec 9y ago

Well there's two ways this can go down. Either these things that we all do become illegal and we're all criminals and the government uses it as a form of repression when people need to be put away for whatever reason the regime deems necessary. Or these things remain legal and become socially acceptable because once everyone understands everyone is doing it, we'll collectively stop caring. Right now we're in this weird transitionary period where things are not illegal, but are frowned upon in polite society and it's first coming out that you know what, we're actually all weird behind the scenes and there's no such thing as normal. So we have weaponized public outrage. I'm curious which way we'll go. Hopefully it's not the "we're all criminals" way. That would suck.

mmjaa 9y ago
I'm reminded of the suffering of the Jewish people, who returned to Vienna after a long period of persecution, because they were 'made legal again' .. and yet, only a few years later, were again destroyed as a people and a culture by the change of power. We must never forget the betrayal that occurs before every human atrocity. Setting ourselves up for betrayal belies a very weak culture.
- Swizec 9y ago
  Yeah and when Captain Kirk kissed Uhura it was a small scandal because it was the first time a black woman and a white man kissed on US TV.[1] Are we expecting those tensions to come back any time soon? Should interracial couples hide their relationships? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirk_and_Uhura%27s_kiss https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirk_and_Uhura%27s_kiss
  - mmjaa 9y ago
    Your sci-fi fantasy is a straw man, but I will say that this point: >expecting those tensions to come back any time soon? .. has to be answered. The answer is, yes, we must always expect society to regress, and never assume that because we made the world okay, our children will too. When we open the door for discrimination, hatred and intolerance come pouring through - at first as a trickle and then as a flood. The law that says "all your data belongs to us" today may not be cause for harm; but would you want the next leader, whose policies may be more discriminatory, to have such powers? The price of freedom is constant alertness. We must always be prepared for the doors of intolerance, hatred and bigotry to open - having total access to all our information is a very, very wide, open door.
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    "Those tensions" are not gone.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    >Are we expecting those tensions to come back any time soon? Sure, why not. For example in a lot of European cities honor killings (e.g. killing your daughter/sister etc because she has been or even eyed some man or your son because he is gay), have been re-introduced in practice after over a century due to hardcore islamic immigration. This is from an official EU report: " In Sweden, the government estimated that up to 2004, 1 500 to 2 000 girls and women had been the victims of 'honour' crimes". http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2015/573877/EPRS_BRI(2015)573877_EN.pdf http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2015/57387...
    - tptacek 9y ago
      You should be careful with these statistics for three reasons. 1. Their provenance is sketchy. The EU report sources data from private advocacy organizations. That data is in turn extrapolated, premised on the idea that most "honor crimes" are unreported. 2. Their definitions are sketchy. By the report's logic, the difference between an honor crime and domestic violence is cultural intent. Domestic violence is highly prevalent across Europe (and, of course, the United States, where it accounts for a plurality of all those currently incarcerated in major metro jails, despite a microscopic population of people from cultures where "honor crimes" are a thing). And, of course, almost none of these crimes are murder or attempted murder. 3. The goals are sketchy. There's an extent to which reporting on "honor crimes" can be seen as a way to take a universal phenomenon, separate out the Muslims, and pathologize their incidence of that phenomenon. Certainly, with this report, you are nowhere close to having presented evidence for the extraordinary claim that "hardcore Islamic immigration" has created an epidemic of "honor killings". You should, again, be more careful than this.
      - cpach 9y ago
        We’re getting quite OT here, but since where already at it... Why the quotes around the term honor crimes? I do believe there is a credible argument that domestic violence and honour-based violence are not the same thing. It’s not just private advocacy organizations that say this. Some interesting quotes from a report published by the UK government: 2.13. The rationale for HBV [honour-based violence] differs from other related crime types such as domestic abuse in that it usually occurs to preserve perceived social, cultural or religious traditions or norms. HBV can involve multiple perpetrators taking drastic action which may be premeditated. 2.14. The other difference between HBV and other forms of abuse is that there are potentially significant risks to people associated with the victim, for example the victim’s children, siblings and friends as well as members of various authority groups and organisations who seek to assist the victim. So based on this I would say HBV isn’t exactly the same thing as domestic violence. But of course, this is not only about muslims. Far from it. HBV is taking place in many different cultures and countries. 2.9. HBV is not linked to any one religion, culture or society. It has been identified as mainly occurring among populations from South Asia. However, it can occur in other cultures and communities, such as African, Middle Eastern, Turkish, Kurdish, Afghan, parts of Europe (including the United Kingdom) American, Australian and Canadian. HBV is not associated with any particular religion or religious practices and has been recorded across a number of faiths, including Christian, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim and Sikh communities. Source: https://www.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk/hmicfrs/wp-content/uploads/the-depths-of-dishonour.pdf https://www.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk/hmicfrs/wp-content/u... I don’t know how prevalent these practices are in Sweden/Europe so I have no idea about the reliability of the stats from the EP briefing that was cited by 'coldtea. But I think it’s important that the authorities are aware about the specifics of the issue in order to help the victims in a proper manner. If we just say that it’s all domestic violence we might not be able to help the victims in a relevant way.
michaelt 9y ago
There are plenty of things that 1% or 0.1% of people are doing - common enough that widespread discovery would have a large societal impact, but rare enough it could easily remain stigmatised. I can't imagine that sex workers or adult diaper fetishists or whatever will suddenly find acceptance from their neighbours just because it's all out in the open now.
coldtea 9y ago
>Right now we're in this weird transitionary period where things are not illegal, but are frowned upon in polite society That's not just 'right now'. That has been going for millennia of recorded history. And any change towards e.g. more transparency can be reverted at any point in the future too (history usually moves in circles, not towards some end goal of progress -- even slavery has been abolished and then re-introduced several times. And racism is a relatively modern (a few centuries) invention. There were black kings with white subjects back in history and nobody batted an eye, but it would be unthinkable in 18th century USA/Europe).

by Swizec 9y ago

mmjaa 9y ago

I'm reminded of the suffering of the Jewish people, who returned to Vienna after a long period of persecution, because they were 'made legal again' .. and yet, only a few years later, were again destroyed as a people and a culture by the change of power. We must never forget the betrayal that occurs before every human atrocity. Setting ourselves up for betrayal belies a very weak culture.

Swizec 9y ago
Yeah and when Captain Kirk kissed Uhura it was a small scandal because it was the first time a black woman and a white man kissed on US TV.[1] Are we expecting those tensions to come back any time soon? Should interracial couples hide their relationships? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirk_and_Uhura%27s_kiss https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirk_and_Uhura%27s_kiss
- mmjaa 9y ago
  Your sci-fi fantasy is a straw man, but I will say that this point: >expecting those tensions to come back any time soon? .. has to be answered. The answer is, yes, we must always expect society to regress, and never assume that because we made the world okay, our children will too. When we open the door for discrimination, hatred and intolerance come pouring through - at first as a trickle and then as a flood. The law that says "all your data belongs to us" today may not be cause for harm; but would you want the next leader, whose policies may be more discriminatory, to have such powers? The price of freedom is constant alertness. We must always be prepared for the doors of intolerance, hatred and bigotry to open - having total access to all our information is a very, very wide, open door.
- emodendroket 9y ago
  "Those tensions" are not gone.
- coldtea 9y ago
  >Are we expecting those tensions to come back any time soon? Sure, why not. For example in a lot of European cities honor killings (e.g. killing your daughter/sister etc because she has been or even eyed some man or your son because he is gay), have been re-introduced in practice after over a century due to hardcore islamic immigration. This is from an official EU report: " In Sweden, the government estimated that up to 2004, 1 500 to 2 000 girls and women had been the victims of 'honour' crimes". http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2015/573877/EPRS_BRI(2015)573877_EN.pdf http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2015/57387...
  - tptacek 9y ago
    You should be careful with these statistics for three reasons. 1. Their provenance is sketchy. The EU report sources data from private advocacy organizations. That data is in turn extrapolated, premised on the idea that most "honor crimes" are unreported. 2. Their definitions are sketchy. By the report's logic, the difference between an honor crime and domestic violence is cultural intent. Domestic violence is highly prevalent across Europe (and, of course, the United States, where it accounts for a plurality of all those currently incarcerated in major metro jails, despite a microscopic population of people from cultures where "honor crimes" are a thing). And, of course, almost none of these crimes are murder or attempted murder. 3. The goals are sketchy. There's an extent to which reporting on "honor crimes" can be seen as a way to take a universal phenomenon, separate out the Muslims, and pathologize their incidence of that phenomenon. Certainly, with this report, you are nowhere close to having presented evidence for the extraordinary claim that "hardcore Islamic immigration" has created an epidemic of "honor killings". You should, again, be more careful than this.
    - cpach 9y ago
      We’re getting quite OT here, but since where already at it... Why the quotes around the term honor crimes? I do believe there is a credible argument that domestic violence and honour-based violence are not the same thing. It’s not just private advocacy organizations that say this. Some interesting quotes from a report published by the UK government: 2.13. The rationale for HBV [honour-based violence] differs from other related crime types such as domestic abuse in that it usually occurs to preserve perceived social, cultural or religious traditions or norms. HBV can involve multiple perpetrators taking drastic action which may be premeditated. 2.14. The other difference between HBV and other forms of abuse is that there are potentially significant risks to people associated with the victim, for example the victim’s children, siblings and friends as well as members of various authority groups and organisations who seek to assist the victim. So based on this I would say HBV isn’t exactly the same thing as domestic violence. But of course, this is not only about muslims. Far from it. HBV is taking place in many different cultures and countries. 2.9. HBV is not linked to any one religion, culture or society. It has been identified as mainly occurring among populations from South Asia. However, it can occur in other cultures and communities, such as African, Middle Eastern, Turkish, Kurdish, Afghan, parts of Europe (including the United Kingdom) American, Australian and Canadian. HBV is not associated with any particular religion or religious practices and has been recorded across a number of faiths, including Christian, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim and Sikh communities. Source: https://www.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk/hmicfrs/wp-content/uploads/the-depths-of-dishonour.pdf https://www.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk/hmicfrs/wp-content/u... I don’t know how prevalent these practices are in Sweden/Europe so I have no idea about the reliability of the stats from the EP briefing that was cited by 'coldtea. But I think it’s important that the authorities are aware about the specifics of the issue in order to help the victims in a proper manner. If we just say that it’s all domestic violence we might not be able to help the victims in a relevant way.

michaelt 9y ago

There are plenty of things that 1% or 0.1% of people are doing - common enough that widespread discovery would have a large societal impact, but rare enough it could easily remain stigmatised. I can't imagine that sex workers or adult diaper fetishists or whatever will suddenly find acceptance from their neighbours just because it's all out in the open now.

coldtea 9y ago

>Right now we're in this weird transitionary period where things are not illegal, but are frowned upon in polite society That's not just 'right now'. That has been going for millennia of recorded history. And any change towards e.g. more transparency can be reverted at any point in the future too (history usually moves in circles, not towards some end goal of progress -- even slavery has been abolished and then re-introduced several times. And racism is a relatively modern (a few centuries) invention. There were black kings with white subjects back in history and nobody batted an eye, but it would be unthinkable in 18th century USA/Europe).