5 ms·

Because even though it might be accepted in the future, these things have real consequences now and for the foreseeable future.

Swizec 9y ago
That's kind of circular isn't it? I understand we care because it has real consequences. But why does it have real consequences? That's what I'm wondering and have been for a while. Where does the outrage come from? We all know we all watch porn. But if it comes out that so and so important figure watches porn, suddenly it's the end of the world? Why? Who decides which instance breeds outrage and which doesn't?
- gregjwild 9y ago
  For me, this is why it's such a big deal: I don't think it has to be porn to be used against you. It just needs to be some minor character flaw that breaks with your public image. And I guess more troubling still, this kind of stuff could be used to blackmail normal people in the same way revenge porn is. What about threatening to reveal your porn habits to friends & family? Again, doesn't need to be porn. What about your browsing history for medicine, self-help etc? All that stuff could be used to blackmail someone, especially if they're psychologically vulnerable.
- coldtea 9y ago
  >That's what I'm wondering and have been for a while. Where does the outrage come from? We all know we all watch porn. But if it comes out that so and so important figure watches porn, suddenly it's the end of the world? Why? Who decides which instance breeds outrage and which doesn't? Well, ultimately others decide, so it's beyond your and my control.
  - tedunangst 9y ago
    Others decide because we allow them too. We could make an effort to read less about the private habits of others. "That's private, I'm not clicking it." And yet for all the privacy advocates on HN, there's still a great deal of interest in salacious stories.
- cr0sh 9y ago
  > Where does the outrage come from? We all know we all watch porn. Let's say Politician A runs on a platform of making legislation and supporting other things that make the lives of LGBTQ difficult (or dangerous). He gets totally awesome support, everyone loves him. Then it is found that Politician A is browsing twink pr0n on his work computer. Or worse, he is blackmailed because of it, becomes corrupted, then is outed for his browsing habits. You don't think this can't have real consequences? What if this was found long before, and he is being coerced into introducing legislation by some more powerful person or group who will expose his (now hypocritical) habits to the public, unless he pushes for legislation that will punish those that other group/person wants? That's only one example (probably flawed in ways), but people get really bent when a politician says one thing, but is secretly doing another and it is found out - especially when that politician is doing things that oppress others. Some call it self-hate, or projection, or similar - which it may be. Whatever it is, it is justified to feel angry over such things. What I don't understand is why people keep giving politicians such "benefit of doubt" before electing them - we always seem to regret it in some manner afterward (sometimes only a bit, sometimes a lot - very, very rarely do we see or get someone who is a benefit to everyone).
sleepychu 9y ago
and the reverse, we use these examples to highlight things you might not want to come out now but what happens when there's a marked shift in the political stance to e.g. Homosexuality/Transgender people? Say an ultra-conservative government was elected on a platform of hate towards people that we're currently moving towards accepting, wouldn't you want it to be hard for someone to find out if you spent a lot of time looking at certain materials relating to those topics?
- emodendroket 9y ago
  You don't need to cast it as some outlandish scenario, since there are many countries where being gay (or, to use the example in the OP, watching porn) are illegal and violators are really subject to penalties.
  - sleepychu 9y ago
    To be clear, my stance is that laws that make it illegal to be homosexual are wrong. With that said, in your example those people are actively breaking the law and if you're using the internet to break the law today I don't see a lot of problem with the government tracking that back to you. My concern is large scale collection of records of acts which are then turned into crimes/persecuted groups and I think that's what people should primarily concern themselves with when it comes to the present internet privacy debate.
mmjaa 9y ago
The point is, it may be accepted now, but in the future it may become cause for a great deal of concern - and that is why we cannot allow ourselves to submit to the heinous evil of state surveillance. This is a de-evolutionary impulse.
- Swizec 9y ago
  Well there's two ways this can go down. Either these things that we all do become illegal and we're all criminals and the government uses it as a form of repression when people need to be put away for whatever reason the regime deems necessary. Or these things remain legal and become socially acceptable because once everyone understands everyone is doing it, we'll collectively stop caring. Right now we're in this weird transitionary period where things are not illegal, but are frowned upon in polite society and it's first coming out that you know what, we're actually all weird behind the scenes and there's no such thing as normal. So we have weaponized public outrage. I'm curious which way we'll go. Hopefully it's not the "we're all criminals" way. That would suck.
  - mmjaa 9y ago
    I'm reminded of the suffering of the Jewish people, who returned to Vienna after a long period of persecution, because they were 'made legal again' .. and yet, only a few years later, were again destroyed as a people and a culture by the change of power. We must never forget the betrayal that occurs before every human atrocity. Setting ourselves up for betrayal belies a very weak culture.
    - Swizec 9y ago
      Yeah and when Captain Kirk kissed Uhura it was a small scandal because it was the first time a black woman and a white man kissed on US TV.[1] Are we expecting those tensions to come back any time soon? Should interracial couples hide their relationships? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirk_and_Uhura%27s_kiss https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirk_and_Uhura%27s_kiss
      - 9y ago

Swizec 9y ago

That's kind of circular isn't it? I understand we care because it has real consequences. But why does it have real consequences? That's what I'm wondering and have been for a while. Where does the outrage come from? We all know we all watch porn. But if it comes out that so and so important figure watches porn, suddenly it's the end of the world? Why? Who decides which instance breeds outrage and which doesn't?

gregjwild 9y ago
For me, this is why it's such a big deal: I don't think it has to be porn to be used against you. It just needs to be some minor character flaw that breaks with your public image. And I guess more troubling still, this kind of stuff could be used to blackmail normal people in the same way revenge porn is. What about threatening to reveal your porn habits to friends & family? Again, doesn't need to be porn. What about your browsing history for medicine, self-help etc? All that stuff could be used to blackmail someone, especially if they're psychologically vulnerable.
coldtea 9y ago
>That's what I'm wondering and have been for a while. Where does the outrage come from? We all know we all watch porn. But if it comes out that so and so important figure watches porn, suddenly it's the end of the world? Why? Who decides which instance breeds outrage and which doesn't? Well, ultimately others decide, so it's beyond your and my control.
- tedunangst 9y ago
  Others decide because we allow them too. We could make an effort to read less about the private habits of others. "That's private, I'm not clicking it." And yet for all the privacy advocates on HN, there's still a great deal of interest in salacious stories.
cr0sh 9y ago
> Where does the outrage come from? We all know we all watch porn. Let's say Politician A runs on a platform of making legislation and supporting other things that make the lives of LGBTQ difficult (or dangerous). He gets totally awesome support, everyone loves him. Then it is found that Politician A is browsing twink pr0n on his work computer. Or worse, he is blackmailed because of it, becomes corrupted, then is outed for his browsing habits. You don't think this can't have real consequences? What if this was found long before, and he is being coerced into introducing legislation by some more powerful person or group who will expose his (now hypocritical) habits to the public, unless he pushes for legislation that will punish those that other group/person wants? That's only one example (probably flawed in ways), but people get really bent when a politician says one thing, but is secretly doing another and it is found out - especially when that politician is doing things that oppress others. Some call it self-hate, or projection, or similar - which it may be. Whatever it is, it is justified to feel angry over such things. What I don't understand is why people keep giving politicians such "benefit of doubt" before electing them - we always seem to regret it in some manner afterward (sometimes only a bit, sometimes a lot - very, very rarely do we see or get someone who is a benefit to everyone).

sleepychu 9y ago

and the reverse, we use these examples to highlight things you might not want to come out now but what happens when there's a marked shift in the political stance to e.g. Homosexuality/Transgender people? Say an ultra-conservative government was elected on a platform of hate towards people that we're currently moving towards accepting, wouldn't you want it to be hard for someone to find out if you spent a lot of time looking at certain materials relating to those topics?

emodendroket 9y ago
You don't need to cast it as some outlandish scenario, since there are many countries where being gay (or, to use the example in the OP, watching porn) are illegal and violators are really subject to penalties.
- sleepychu 9y ago
  To be clear, my stance is that laws that make it illegal to be homosexual are wrong. With that said, in your example those people are actively breaking the law and if you're using the internet to break the law today I don't see a lot of problem with the government tracking that back to you. My concern is large scale collection of records of acts which are then turned into crimes/persecuted groups and I think that's what people should primarily concern themselves with when it comes to the present internet privacy debate.

mmjaa 9y ago

The point is, it may be accepted now, but in the future it may become cause for a great deal of concern - and that is why we cannot allow ourselves to submit to the heinous evil of state surveillance. This is a de-evolutionary impulse.

Swizec 9y ago
Well there's two ways this can go down. Either these things that we all do become illegal and we're all criminals and the government uses it as a form of repression when people need to be put away for whatever reason the regime deems necessary. Or these things remain legal and become socially acceptable because once everyone understands everyone is doing it, we'll collectively stop caring. Right now we're in this weird transitionary period where things are not illegal, but are frowned upon in polite society and it's first coming out that you know what, we're actually all weird behind the scenes and there's no such thing as normal. So we have weaponized public outrage. I'm curious which way we'll go. Hopefully it's not the "we're all criminals" way. That would suck.
- mmjaa 9y ago
  I'm reminded of the suffering of the Jewish people, who returned to Vienna after a long period of persecution, because they were 'made legal again' .. and yet, only a few years later, were again destroyed as a people and a culture by the change of power. We must never forget the betrayal that occurs before every human atrocity. Setting ourselves up for betrayal belies a very weak culture.
  - Swizec 9y ago
    Yeah and when Captain Kirk kissed Uhura it was a small scandal because it was the first time a black woman and a white man kissed on US TV.[1] Are we expecting those tensions to come back any time soon? Should interracial couples hide their relationships? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirk_and_Uhura%27s_kiss https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirk_and_Uhura%27s_kiss
    - 9y ago