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The solution isn't more "pragmatism", it's an actual "incredibly powerful type system" like Haskell's. In my projects JSON decoding is just instance FromJS

The solution isn't more "pragmatism", it's an actual "incredibly powerful type system" like Haskell's. In my projects JSON decoding is just instance FromJSON Foo and that's it.

dmitriid 9y ago
Nope. The solution is actually "more pragmatism", not "here's a thing that requires a PhD in type theory to understand".
- tome 9y ago
  At this point you just sound like a troll.
  - dmitriid 9y ago
    Nope. It's a genuine feeling. Basically, in an ideal world we would have a "pragmatically typed" programming language. Basically something in between "weak dynamic typing of Javascript" and "strong static typing of Haskell". No such language currently exists, and this makes me sad. It's also hard to come up with a proper definition for such a language :)
    - tome 9y ago
      > Nope. It's a genuine feeling. That's not exclusive with being a troll. > Basically, in an ideal world we would have a "pragmatically typed" programming language. Yes, it's called Haskell. Or, if you don't like purity, either OCaml or F#.
      - dmitriid 9y ago
        I strongly believe Haskell is very very far from being a "pragmatically typed" language. This reminds me, I need to write a blog post (which is tangentially about Haskell, but mostly about statically typed languages)
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      > Basically, in an ideal world we would have a "pragmatically typed" programming language. Basically something in between "weak dynamic typing of Javascript" and "strong static typing of Haskell". Souunds like one of the many strong dynamic languages with optional static typing/typechecking.
      - dmitriid 9y ago
        Yeah. I like approaches taken by OCaml/ReasonML and Typescript. But they are not without their warts :)
- mrkgnao 9y ago
  Type classes are basically interfaces from Java. I'm guessing from your other comments that you know Java (and have read LYAH), so this is actually trolling. The majority of people writing the goddamned Haskell compiler don't have PhDs, they're people using it in industry.
  - dmitriid 9y ago
    "People using something in industry" is rarely an indicator of anything, really. Industry uses everything and anything. Heck, Javascript is (arguably) world's most popular programming language, used everywhere. Haskell is used by Chase Bank. J and K are used by banks (J is used by SAP AFAIK). There are stories of Smalltalk running entire factories. There's Active Oberon in a nuclear plant in France. Excel is the world's most widely used FRP environment (unsurpassed, I might add, by anything anyone can offer). For almost any programming language you name, I will probably find examples of people using it in an industry somewhere, no matter how good, or bad, or obscure, or popular, or well designed, or badly designed a language is. "You need a PhD in type theory" is a hyperbole which I use to say "to proceed to any advanced level in Haskell you will need to dive quite deep into type theory as it's highly likely you will not even understand how most of the libraries you use work. Most of documentation and material around Haskell is riddled with incomprehensible jargon that often assumes the reader is already versed in any number of obscure Haskell things. Haskell has always been and remains a language designed to specifically test multiple theories of language and types design, and will remain such a language for a foreseeable future, no matter how people try to make it 'more approachable' or 'more pragmatic', and no matter how many people 'use it in the industry'."
    - mrkgnao 9y ago
      > Haskell is used by Chase Bank. Also a ton of other financial services companies: Morgan Stanley, Standard Chartered, and so on. Facebook has, in the recent past, hired a lot of well-known Haskellers. Bunch of hedge fund-ish things do too. Jane Street uses OCaml and does a lot of AdWords targeting at Haskell users :P I don't know a shred of "type theory" (although I'm interested): you probably mean something else. Monad transformers aren't even categorical abstractions; they evolved from the needs of Haskell users. > Haskell has always been and remains a language not opposed to testing multiple theories of language and types design There, fixed that for you. Seriously, why don't you make a good-faith effort to dive into Haskell (as opposed to learning just enough of the jargon to be able to troll with apparent seriousness) before lambasting the things that make it a joy to work with?
- Ar-Curunir 9y ago
  99% of Rust programmers don't have PhDs, I'm sure, and yet they use typeclasses (called traits in Rust) just fine...
Ar-Curunir 9y ago
It's the same with `rust` and `serde`; it's a great feeling!
- mrkgnao 9y ago
  I can imagine :) I think over in Rust-land it's something like #[derive(FromJSON)] isn't it?
  - steveklabnik 9y ago
    #[derive(Serialize, Deserialize)] but yeah, same difference.
    - mrkgnao 9y ago
      Ah. That derives both "ToJSON" and "FromJSON", as Aeson calls them. Cool!
      - steveklabnik 9y ago
        Yeah, and it's actually more general than that: it describes how to serialize and deserialize them generally, so you could use, say, serde_json to get json, or serde_yaml to get yaml.
        mrkgnao 9y ago
        Huh, nice.

The solution isn't more "pragmatism", it's an actual "incredibly powerful type system" like Haskell's. In my projects JSON decoding is just instance FromJSON Foo and that's it.

dmitriid 9y ago

Nope. The solution is actually "more pragmatism", not "here's a thing that requires a PhD in type theory to understand".

tome 9y ago
At this point you just sound like a troll.
- dmitriid 9y ago
  Nope. It's a genuine feeling. Basically, in an ideal world we would have a "pragmatically typed" programming language. Basically something in between "weak dynamic typing of Javascript" and "strong static typing of Haskell". No such language currently exists, and this makes me sad. It's also hard to come up with a proper definition for such a language :)
  - tome 9y ago
    > Nope. It's a genuine feeling. That's not exclusive with being a troll. > Basically, in an ideal world we would have a "pragmatically typed" programming language. Yes, it's called Haskell. Or, if you don't like purity, either OCaml or F#.
    - dmitriid 9y ago
      I strongly believe Haskell is very very far from being a "pragmatically typed" language. This reminds me, I need to write a blog post (which is tangentially about Haskell, but mostly about statically typed languages)
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > Basically, in an ideal world we would have a "pragmatically typed" programming language. Basically something in between "weak dynamic typing of Javascript" and "strong static typing of Haskell". Souunds like one of the many strong dynamic languages with optional static typing/typechecking.
    - dmitriid 9y ago
      Yeah. I like approaches taken by OCaml/ReasonML and Typescript. But they are not without their warts :)
mrkgnao 9y ago
Type classes are basically interfaces from Java. I'm guessing from your other comments that you know Java (and have read LYAH), so this is actually trolling. The majority of people writing the goddamned Haskell compiler don't have PhDs, they're people using it in industry.
- dmitriid 9y ago
  "People using something in industry" is rarely an indicator of anything, really. Industry uses everything and anything. Heck, Javascript is (arguably) world's most popular programming language, used everywhere. Haskell is used by Chase Bank. J and K are used by banks (J is used by SAP AFAIK). There are stories of Smalltalk running entire factories. There's Active Oberon in a nuclear plant in France. Excel is the world's most widely used FRP environment (unsurpassed, I might add, by anything anyone can offer). For almost any programming language you name, I will probably find examples of people using it in an industry somewhere, no matter how good, or bad, or obscure, or popular, or well designed, or badly designed a language is. "You need a PhD in type theory" is a hyperbole which I use to say "to proceed to any advanced level in Haskell you will need to dive quite deep into type theory as it's highly likely you will not even understand how most of the libraries you use work. Most of documentation and material around Haskell is riddled with incomprehensible jargon that often assumes the reader is already versed in any number of obscure Haskell things. Haskell has always been and remains a language designed to specifically test multiple theories of language and types design, and will remain such a language for a foreseeable future, no matter how people try to make it 'more approachable' or 'more pragmatic', and no matter how many people 'use it in the industry'."
  - mrkgnao 9y ago
    > Haskell is used by Chase Bank. Also a ton of other financial services companies: Morgan Stanley, Standard Chartered, and so on. Facebook has, in the recent past, hired a lot of well-known Haskellers. Bunch of hedge fund-ish things do too. Jane Street uses OCaml and does a lot of AdWords targeting at Haskell users :P I don't know a shred of "type theory" (although I'm interested): you probably mean something else. Monad transformers aren't even categorical abstractions; they evolved from the needs of Haskell users. > Haskell has always been and remains a language not opposed to testing multiple theories of language and types design There, fixed that for you. Seriously, why don't you make a good-faith effort to dive into Haskell (as opposed to learning just enough of the jargon to be able to troll with apparent seriousness) before lambasting the things that make it a joy to work with?
Ar-Curunir 9y ago
99% of Rust programmers don't have PhDs, I'm sure, and yet they use typeclasses (called traits in Rust) just fine...

Ar-Curunir 9y ago

It's the same with `rust` and `serde`; it's a great feeling!

mrkgnao 9y ago
I can imagine :) I think over in Rust-land it's something like #[derive(FromJSON)] isn't it?
- steveklabnik 9y ago
  #[derive(Serialize, Deserialize)] but yeah, same difference.
  - mrkgnao 9y ago
    Ah. That derives both "ToJSON" and "FromJSON", as Aeson calls them. Cool!
    - steveklabnik 9y ago
      Yeah, and it's actually more general than that: it describes how to serialize and deserialize them generally, so you could use, say, serde_json to get json, or serde_yaml to get yaml.
      - mrkgnao 9y ago
        Huh, nice.