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After doing a couple of contracts on Elm projects for several months, and returning now back to a React-Redux stack project, I cannot emphasize enough how much

After doing a couple of contracts on Elm projects for several months, and returning now back to a React-Redux stack project, I cannot emphasize enough how much better working with Elm is. In every single aspect. I just wish that it will get mainstream as soon as possible. His article is spot on, and agrees with what I've seen, and most others that used Elm. Just look it up.

BoiledCabbage 9y ago
> I cannot emphasize enough how much better working with Elm is. >In every single aspect. I just wish that it will get mainstream as soon as possible. I completely agree - I will be a huge benefit to the industry when elm is as common as js. The concepts it introduces, the benefits it shows are all huge. I've been programming a long time, and elm shattered my views of the relationship between a coder and his/her compiler. It went from being that thing you have to "pass" to see your code work, to instead a faithful companion. Like having a trusted dog with you in the woods - an extra set of senses to help you out on your way. Elm is not perfect (no language is) -but being perfect isn't the goal. A practical transition story, huge productivity gains and extremely maintainable code.
- antouank 9y ago
  Not perfect, but definitely a much better tool for that work (big front-end apps). JS was not meant for that, it's been stretched far from what it was (quickly) designed for. And sure, when more people join Elm, bad-written libraries or silly paradigms will crop up, but I'm confident it won't be as bad as the JS landscape is today. Time will tell I guess. -- Now back to stitching those JS libraries to write some code that might work. Bills have to be paid :)
- jnbiche 9y ago
  > I've been programming a long time, and elm shattered my views of the relationship between a coder and his/her compiler. I love Elm as much as the next guy, but be aware that you can get many, if not most, of these same benefits while working in JS if you use Flow.js or Typescript. I prefer Flow because the community is more oriented toward functional programming vs OOP in Typescript, but they're both capable static analyzers for JS.
  - tomtheelder 9y ago
    I would disagree strongly with this, but I don't quite know how to put my objection into words. The enforced functional purity, "true" and incredibly friendly compiler, and the robust message system are all things that I don't think you really get in those other languages. To me, it's a bit like saying that you get all the benefits of Haskell in Java, because Java is also statically typed.
    - jnbiche 9y ago
      Please read my comment again, I said "many if not most" of the benefits. And I was referring specifically to the tire system, not the language as a whole. Listen, I love pure functional languages, but the step up from JavaScript to flow in program correctness is greater than the step up from flow to elm (in my opinion). Flow even has sum types. Have you actually tried flow?
      - simplify 9y ago
        I've tried to use flow three times now, but the tooling just isn't there yet. It might be better now, but Facebook doesn't seem to invest heavily in developer UX.
        jnbiche 9y ago
        What problem did you have?? I've been using Flow.js for work for several years now, to great success. I feel very uncomfortable now writing plain JS.
        simplify 9y ago
        For some reason I could never get flow's in-editor errors and type information to work. Personally I use TypeScript. Their sublime support is nice and fast.
  - gcanti 9y ago
    working on a fp library for TypeScript if you want to take a look https://github.com/gcanti/fp-ts https://github.com/gcanti/fp-ts
StreamBright 9y ago
I am more interested in the details that just this blank statement that everything is better. After trying Elm several times we failed to implement even basic things in it that we could do in React/Redux easily. For an average JS developer Elm is totally alien tech compare to React or Angular. For Haskell programmers Elm is pretty appealing because of the familiar syntax and type system, but the intersection of Haskell programmers and frontend developers are pretty small.
- antouank 9y ago
  For an average JS developer Elm is totally alien tech compare to React or Angular To turn your argument the other way. The JS landscape, where "trendy" libraries change every few months, is also alien to anyone that doesn't keep with the latest libraries every few months. Is that not worse? I don't have to explain "JS fatigue", it's a fact. For example, I just got into a new team, and I have to now use what they use. I've been doing JS for 4+ years, and that stack I'm facing now, is alien and confusing to me. I have to invest time and learn what the hell those redux-sagas are, or what "magic" create-react-app tools hide, and in general, it's very confusing so far. With Elm, I spent a few weeks 1 year ago to learn the language, and that was it. All the libraries are very simple to use because of the language. I doubt that learning "redux-sagas" will help me a year from now. Also, Elm, gives a very coherent package. You don't have to transpile or add a linter, or a type checker, or stitch new libraries every few months because the trend changed. No webpack or babel or eslint or immutable.js or typescript or flow or any of those. Not to go into the part of the safety and confidence the compiler gives you. Typescript or flow are not even close to that quality and guarantee level. Note that again you have to learn their syntax and configure them, so that's again a cost on top of learning JS. And they are as much alien as Elm. FWIW, I start now side-projects in Elm, and I get things done way faster than with JS. And that's also what I see from other people as well, regardless of whether they come from JS or another language.
  - computerex 9y ago
    Nothing is forcing you to use the trendiest JS libraries. Feel free to do your side projects in vanilla JS or with whatever library you want. The constantly churning and evolving JS ecosystem isn't necessarily a bad thing, although it does demand some attention. On the flip side, there is a lot of pre-written reusable code and more gets added daily. From an ecosystem point of view, elm doesn't hold a candle to JS. Also, you don't have to learn every single JS library out there. You don't have to use redux-sagas. Use whatever you want. Yes, I know there are a lot of tools and a lot of options and that can be exhausting. But I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.

BoiledCabbage 9y ago

> I cannot emphasize enough how much better working with Elm is. >In every single aspect. I just wish that it will get mainstream as soon as possible. I completely agree - I will be a huge benefit to the industry when elm is as common as js. The concepts it introduces, the benefits it shows are all huge. I've been programming a long time, and elm shattered my views of the relationship between a coder and his/her compiler. It went from being that thing you have to "pass" to see your code work, to instead a faithful companion. Like having a trusted dog with you in the woods - an extra set of senses to help you out on your way. Elm is not perfect (no language is) -but being perfect isn't the goal. A practical transition story, huge productivity gains and extremely maintainable code.

antouank 9y ago
Not perfect, but definitely a much better tool for that work (big front-end apps). JS was not meant for that, it's been stretched far from what it was (quickly) designed for. And sure, when more people join Elm, bad-written libraries or silly paradigms will crop up, but I'm confident it won't be as bad as the JS landscape is today. Time will tell I guess. -- Now back to stitching those JS libraries to write some code that might work. Bills have to be paid :)
jnbiche 9y ago
> I've been programming a long time, and elm shattered my views of the relationship between a coder and his/her compiler. I love Elm as much as the next guy, but be aware that you can get many, if not most, of these same benefits while working in JS if you use Flow.js or Typescript. I prefer Flow because the community is more oriented toward functional programming vs OOP in Typescript, but they're both capable static analyzers for JS.
- tomtheelder 9y ago
  I would disagree strongly with this, but I don't quite know how to put my objection into words. The enforced functional purity, "true" and incredibly friendly compiler, and the robust message system are all things that I don't think you really get in those other languages. To me, it's a bit like saying that you get all the benefits of Haskell in Java, because Java is also statically typed.
  - jnbiche 9y ago
    Please read my comment again, I said "many if not most" of the benefits. And I was referring specifically to the tire system, not the language as a whole. Listen, I love pure functional languages, but the step up from JavaScript to flow in program correctness is greater than the step up from flow to elm (in my opinion). Flow even has sum types. Have you actually tried flow?
    - simplify 9y ago
      I've tried to use flow three times now, but the tooling just isn't there yet. It might be better now, but Facebook doesn't seem to invest heavily in developer UX.
      - jnbiche 9y ago
        What problem did you have?? I've been using Flow.js for work for several years now, to great success. I feel very uncomfortable now writing plain JS.
        simplify 9y ago
        For some reason I could never get flow's in-editor errors and type information to work. Personally I use TypeScript. Their sublime support is nice and fast.
- gcanti 9y ago
  working on a fp library for TypeScript if you want to take a look https://github.com/gcanti/fp-ts https://github.com/gcanti/fp-ts

StreamBright 9y ago

I am more interested in the details that just this blank statement that everything is better. After trying Elm several times we failed to implement even basic things in it that we could do in React/Redux easily. For an average JS developer Elm is totally alien tech compare to React or Angular. For Haskell programmers Elm is pretty appealing because of the familiar syntax and type system, but the intersection of Haskell programmers and frontend developers are pretty small.

antouank 9y ago
For an average JS developer Elm is totally alien tech compare to React or Angular To turn your argument the other way. The JS landscape, where "trendy" libraries change every few months, is also alien to anyone that doesn't keep with the latest libraries every few months. Is that not worse? I don't have to explain "JS fatigue", it's a fact. For example, I just got into a new team, and I have to now use what they use. I've been doing JS for 4+ years, and that stack I'm facing now, is alien and confusing to me. I have to invest time and learn what the hell those redux-sagas are, or what "magic" create-react-app tools hide, and in general, it's very confusing so far. With Elm, I spent a few weeks 1 year ago to learn the language, and that was it. All the libraries are very simple to use because of the language. I doubt that learning "redux-sagas" will help me a year from now. Also, Elm, gives a very coherent package. You don't have to transpile or add a linter, or a type checker, or stitch new libraries every few months because the trend changed. No webpack or babel or eslint or immutable.js or typescript or flow or any of those. Not to go into the part of the safety and confidence the compiler gives you. Typescript or flow are not even close to that quality and guarantee level. Note that again you have to learn their syntax and configure them, so that's again a cost on top of learning JS. And they are as much alien as Elm. FWIW, I start now side-projects in Elm, and I get things done way faster than with JS. And that's also what I see from other people as well, regardless of whether they come from JS or another language.
- computerex 9y ago
  Nothing is forcing you to use the trendiest JS libraries. Feel free to do your side projects in vanilla JS or with whatever library you want. The constantly churning and evolving JS ecosystem isn't necessarily a bad thing, although it does demand some attention. On the flip side, there is a lot of pre-written reusable code and more gets added daily. From an ecosystem point of view, elm doesn't hold a candle to JS. Also, you don't have to learn every single JS library out there. You don't have to use redux-sagas. Use whatever you want. Yes, I know there are a lot of tools and a lot of options and that can be exhausting. But I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.