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That's an interesting perspective, but I'm not sure I understand it. The existence of an underclass _is_ a negative IMO, but if I'm understanding you correctly

That's an interesting perspective, but I'm not sure I understand it. The existence of an underclass _is_ a negative IMO, but if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that it's also a hidden negative for those whose time is freed up? Every time I've heard this sentiment or something related expressed by a friend, it's been from someone whose use of their leisure activities are utterly boring. When they open up a new chunk of regular free time, they don't pick up a new instrument or sport or online course, they just do their leisure activities a bit more often: go to the same bars a bit more, watch a bit (or a lot) more TV, go to brunch a bit more often. (To be clear, I enjoy all these things and don't think they're inherently boring, but think that there's obvious a point at which marginal returns are diminishing) By contrast, I and many people I know aren't already in a surplus of leisure time. I've been debating re-orienting my career to reliably require less than 40 hours per week because I simply have a dozen other interests I want to pursue. I enjoy my job, but 40 hours dedicated to _one_ of these pursuits to the detriment of the others is a disproportionately huge amount, especially given that it's 40 daylight hours. Given the long list of time-consuming things that I already find rewarding, I can't relate to the concept that being a slave to the drudgery of menial tasks is somehow something that would be _missing_ from my life if I managed to remove it. To reiterate, I do think that a shift in the economy that leads to increasing outsourcing of menial tasks to an underclass is an issue worth thinking about in terms of what it says about the way our economy is structured and why said underclass is in that position. I just don't buy the self-flagellating claim that doing X hours of penance a week on things you'd rather not do is somehow a moral good.

sliverstorm 9y ago
There's something slightly pathetic about an adult who has forgotten how to cook, clean, fix things, get around, and do all the other basic trappings of living because someone else does it all for them. If you use your time saved on laundry to learn how to paint or chart stars or build a house or a car, that's respectable. But how many of the new upper crust are using their saved time that way?
- wutbrodo 9y ago
  > There's something slightly pathetic about an adult who has forgotten how to cook, clean, fix things, get around, and do all the other basic trappings of living because someone else does it all for them. I assume you feel the same way about hunting/growing your food, disposing of your human waste, constructing your own shelter, etc? No? There's something more-than-slightly pathetic about an adult who thinks that their point in history is somehow a special one, where all of the customs happen to be the "correct" ones in an ahistorical sense. > If you use your time saved on laundry to learn how to paint or chart stars or build a house or a car, that's respectable. But how many of the new upper crust are using their saved time that way? Right...this is exactly what my point was. RodericDay's assumption that this is a bad thing relies on being a certain type of person who already doesn't know what to do with the free time they have. For those of whose who don't have that issue, the idea that it's a moral failing to free up time for things you find less interesting is entirely unsupported.
RodericDay 9y ago
There's a concept called the "hedonistic treadmill", where increasingly expensive and intense thrills are never enough for the people who can afford them. I would argue some people I know are stuck on that. If you can go to the beach you can't go to the nice northern beach, if you can do that you can't do Miami, Miami leads to Thailand, and so on. It's weird to see so many super wealthy people dedicating so much time to super luxurious forms of meditation with gurus, wearing white spandex or whatever, when one can achieve a pretty solid trance-like state and think about their day while doing rote mechanical chores like cleaning and cooking. You also learn to try to avoid messes, since you're the one cleaning them up (gratuitous, "someone else will take care of it" messes are one of the things I miss the least about Peru). You also feel a bit humbled, which is good, especially when everyone around you is an obsequious yes-person. I guess I'd do something I rarely do, and borrow an old-fashioned baby-boomer phrase, and say that maybe it "builds character"? Self-sufficient people were a breath of fresh air.
- saalweachter 9y ago
  I don't miss it every day, but some days I miss driving a tractor 8+ hours in a slow circle. The first couple of times you do it it seems tortuously boring, but once you get the hang out it you almost need the time to think.
- wutbrodo 9y ago
  TL;DR: I don't mean to be rude, but pretty much everything falls into assuming things that have nothing to do with the point I'm making. You can decide that you have more valuable things to do with your time without any of the other things associated with the poorly-sketched cartoon characters you seem to think people with disposable income are. > There's a concept called the "hedonistic treadmill", where increasingly expensive and intense thrills are never enough for the people who can afford them. I would argue some people I know are stuck on that. If you can go to the beach you can't go to the nice northern beach, if you can do that you can't do Miami, Miami leads to Thailand, and so on. You're mixing up two completely different concepts. I know people who are at full-speed on the hedonic treadmill who don't fit what I'm talking about, and plenty of people who fit what I am talking about who have nothing to do with the hedonic treadmill. I probably fit the concept I'm describing more than anyone I know, and here are a list of some of the cheapest things taking up my time these days, along with the weekly cost: 1) playing and writing music - less than $2/wk[1] 2) learning another language - free 3) reading all kinds of reference/nonfiction/fiction books - free/extremely cheap (library + used books + exchanging with friends) 4) Playing sports, weightlifting, running in the park or along the water - free + $15/wk gym membership + free 5) Hiking - free if you have a car, or $70/hike I don't intend this in an insulting way, but is it possible that you're falling prey to the typical-mind fallacy and assuming that things are universal when they're really just facets of your personality (and perhaps your circles)? > It's weird to see so many super wealthy people dedicating so much time to super luxurious forms of meditation with gurus, wearing white spandex or whatever, when one can achieve a pretty solid trance-like state and think about their day while doing rote mechanical chores like cleaning and cooking. Seriously, it sounds like you get your perception of people who pay for menial services from cartoons and Gawker blogs. I like cooking, but I don't find any other menial tasks to be enjoyable: I pay to have my laundry done and for my house to be cleaned, and Uber when I don't have time to take transit (even though I prefer the subway). I also have an 80% savings rate, most of my hobbies cost ~$0 [1] I have a $400 piano and a $300 guitar, both of which I've had for 7 years, so 700/(52*7.5)

sliverstorm 9y ago

There's something slightly pathetic about an adult who has forgotten how to cook, clean, fix things, get around, and do all the other basic trappings of living because someone else does it all for them. If you use your time saved on laundry to learn how to paint or chart stars or build a house or a car, that's respectable. But how many of the new upper crust are using their saved time that way?

wutbrodo 9y ago
> There's something slightly pathetic about an adult who has forgotten how to cook, clean, fix things, get around, and do all the other basic trappings of living because someone else does it all for them. I assume you feel the same way about hunting/growing your food, disposing of your human waste, constructing your own shelter, etc? No? There's something more-than-slightly pathetic about an adult who thinks that their point in history is somehow a special one, where all of the customs happen to be the "correct" ones in an ahistorical sense. > If you use your time saved on laundry to learn how to paint or chart stars or build a house or a car, that's respectable. But how many of the new upper crust are using their saved time that way? Right...this is exactly what my point was. RodericDay's assumption that this is a bad thing relies on being a certain type of person who already doesn't know what to do with the free time they have. For those of whose who don't have that issue, the idea that it's a moral failing to free up time for things you find less interesting is entirely unsupported.

RodericDay 9y ago

There's a concept called the "hedonistic treadmill", where increasingly expensive and intense thrills are never enough for the people who can afford them. I would argue some people I know are stuck on that. If you can go to the beach you can't go to the nice northern beach, if you can do that you can't do Miami, Miami leads to Thailand, and so on. It's weird to see so many super wealthy people dedicating so much time to super luxurious forms of meditation with gurus, wearing white spandex or whatever, when one can achieve a pretty solid trance-like state and think about their day while doing rote mechanical chores like cleaning and cooking. You also learn to try to avoid messes, since you're the one cleaning them up (gratuitous, "someone else will take care of it" messes are one of the things I miss the least about Peru). You also feel a bit humbled, which is good, especially when everyone around you is an obsequious yes-person. I guess I'd do something I rarely do, and borrow an old-fashioned baby-boomer phrase, and say that maybe it "builds character"? Self-sufficient people were a breath of fresh air.

saalweachter 9y ago
I don't miss it every day, but some days I miss driving a tractor 8+ hours in a slow circle. The first couple of times you do it it seems tortuously boring, but once you get the hang out it you almost need the time to think.
wutbrodo 9y ago
TL;DR: I don't mean to be rude, but pretty much everything falls into assuming things that have nothing to do with the point I'm making. You can decide that you have more valuable things to do with your time without any of the other things associated with the poorly-sketched cartoon characters you seem to think people with disposable income are. > There's a concept called the "hedonistic treadmill", where increasingly expensive and intense thrills are never enough for the people who can afford them. I would argue some people I know are stuck on that. If you can go to the beach you can't go to the nice northern beach, if you can do that you can't do Miami, Miami leads to Thailand, and so on. You're mixing up two completely different concepts. I know people who are at full-speed on the hedonic treadmill who don't fit what I'm talking about, and plenty of people who fit what I am talking about who have nothing to do with the hedonic treadmill. I probably fit the concept I'm describing more than anyone I know, and here are a list of some of the cheapest things taking up my time these days, along with the weekly cost: 1) playing and writing music - less than $2/wk[1] 2) learning another language - free 3) reading all kinds of reference/nonfiction/fiction books - free/extremely cheap (library + used books + exchanging with friends) 4) Playing sports, weightlifting, running in the park or along the water - free + $15/wk gym membership + free 5) Hiking - free if you have a car, or $70/hike I don't intend this in an insulting way, but is it possible that you're falling prey to the typical-mind fallacy and assuming that things are universal when they're really just facets of your personality (and perhaps your circles)? > It's weird to see so many super wealthy people dedicating so much time to super luxurious forms of meditation with gurus, wearing white spandex or whatever, when one can achieve a pretty solid trance-like state and think about their day while doing rote mechanical chores like cleaning and cooking. Seriously, it sounds like you get your perception of people who pay for menial services from cartoons and Gawker blogs. I like cooking, but I don't find any other menial tasks to be enjoyable: I pay to have my laundry done and for my house to be cleaned, and Uber when I don't have time to take transit (even though I prefer the subway). I also have an 80% savings rate, most of my hobbies cost ~$0 [1] I have a $400 piano and a $300 guitar, both of which I've had for 7 years, so 700/(52*7.5)