16 ms·

Agreed. Bit of a rant, but I came from South America to Canada 10 years ago, and was super impressed by how independent people my age were. They cooked for the

Agreed. Bit of a rant, but I came from South America to Canada 10 years ago, and was super impressed by how independent people my age were. They cooked for themselves, they moved around using public transit, they had part-time jobs, etc. People in my HS just lived luxurious lives while they prepared for luxurious jobs. I couldn't wait to see Peru, where most wealthy families have one or multiple live-in servants, drivers, and maids, develop along those lines. I was hearing stories that the availability of good jobs meant that young "high society" families were finding it super hard to find people to clean their toilets and rear their children for them. Little did I know that shortly thereafter the "sharing economy" would start to boom in North America, and wealthy white-collar workers everywhere would start to gush about cheap cabs, an ability to hire maids and people to do their laundry and cooks, people renting their houses out to them, etc. It feels like a total regression to me. I once heard Silicon Valley described "an assisted-living community for people in their 20s funded by venture capital", and it felt quite apt. I hope the craze ends sooner rather than later.

wutbrodo 9y ago
That's an interesting perspective, but I'm not sure I understand it. The existence of an underclass _is_ a negative IMO, but if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that it's also a hidden negative for those whose time is freed up? Every time I've heard this sentiment or something related expressed by a friend, it's been from someone whose use of their leisure activities are utterly boring. When they open up a new chunk of regular free time, they don't pick up a new instrument or sport or online course, they just do their leisure activities a bit more often: go to the same bars a bit more, watch a bit (or a lot) more TV, go to brunch a bit more often. (To be clear, I enjoy all these things and don't think they're inherently boring, but think that there's obvious a point at which marginal returns are diminishing) By contrast, I and many people I know aren't already in a surplus of leisure time. I've been debating re-orienting my career to reliably require less than 40 hours per week because I simply have a dozen other interests I want to pursue. I enjoy my job, but 40 hours dedicated to _one_ of these pursuits to the detriment of the others is a disproportionately huge amount, especially given that it's 40 daylight hours. Given the long list of time-consuming things that I already find rewarding, I can't relate to the concept that being a slave to the drudgery of menial tasks is somehow something that would be _missing_ from my life if I managed to remove it. To reiterate, I do think that a shift in the economy that leads to increasing outsourcing of menial tasks to an underclass is an issue worth thinking about in terms of what it says about the way our economy is structured and why said underclass is in that position. I just don't buy the self-flagellating claim that doing X hours of penance a week on things you'd rather not do is somehow a moral good.
- sliverstorm 9y ago
  There's something slightly pathetic about an adult who has forgotten how to cook, clean, fix things, get around, and do all the other basic trappings of living because someone else does it all for them. If you use your time saved on laundry to learn how to paint or chart stars or build a house or a car, that's respectable. But how many of the new upper crust are using their saved time that way?
  - wutbrodo 9y ago
    > There's something slightly pathetic about an adult who has forgotten how to cook, clean, fix things, get around, and do all the other basic trappings of living because someone else does it all for them. I assume you feel the same way about hunting/growing your food, disposing of your human waste, constructing your own shelter, etc? No? There's something more-than-slightly pathetic about an adult who thinks that their point in history is somehow a special one, where all of the customs happen to be the "correct" ones in an ahistorical sense. > If you use your time saved on laundry to learn how to paint or chart stars or build a house or a car, that's respectable. But how many of the new upper crust are using their saved time that way? Right...this is exactly what my point was. RodericDay's assumption that this is a bad thing relies on being a certain type of person who already doesn't know what to do with the free time they have. For those of whose who don't have that issue, the idea that it's a moral failing to free up time for things you find less interesting is entirely unsupported.
- RodericDay 9y ago
  There's a concept called the "hedonistic treadmill", where increasingly expensive and intense thrills are never enough for the people who can afford them. I would argue some people I know are stuck on that. If you can go to the beach you can't go to the nice northern beach, if you can do that you can't do Miami, Miami leads to Thailand, and so on. It's weird to see so many super wealthy people dedicating so much time to super luxurious forms of meditation with gurus, wearing white spandex or whatever, when one can achieve a pretty solid trance-like state and think about their day while doing rote mechanical chores like cleaning and cooking. You also learn to try to avoid messes, since you're the one cleaning them up (gratuitous, "someone else will take care of it" messes are one of the things I miss the least about Peru). You also feel a bit humbled, which is good, especially when everyone around you is an obsequious yes-person. I guess I'd do something I rarely do, and borrow an old-fashioned baby-boomer phrase, and say that maybe it "builds character"? Self-sufficient people were a breath of fresh air.
closeparen 9y ago
You've highlighted one of the most insidious sticking points of American car culture: infantilization of anyone who doesn't participate. You're not a Real Adult unless you're driving alone in your own car. I used to think along these lines. I couldn't wait to get a car once I graduated from college and got my first real job, so that I could finally be one of those real adults who didn't need to beg/borrow/buy rides off of others. The thing I hated most about my suburban upbringing was my reliance on others to get around, and I reacted hard. I slowly realized that following the cultural stigma (and my infatuation with a class of inanimate objects) was, in fact, the childish approach. The adult, pragmatic decision turned out to be a combination of public transit for daily commuting, Uber for leisure (when public transit is too annoying), and hourly rentals for cargo hauling and day trips away from the city. This has nothing to do with outsourced motherhood or being an entitled baby, and everything to do with economics. Land has appreciated enough that a driver's labor as needed is less expensive than a parking space full time. I have dreams of owning my own car again, but as long as I live where parking is $275/mo, that will be the luxury option.
- sliverstorm 9y ago
  He already mentioned using public transit as a positive thing. "Car" is just one of many forms of getting yourself around, vs. your own limo.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
nickik 9y ago
A strange perspective. I'm perfectly capable of cleaning my apartment. I'm perfectly capable of using public transit (I can't even drive). I'm perfectly capable of doing my own shopping. I could do a lot of things myself but I rather use a maid, a self driving car (once they exist) and home delivery for shopping. Self sufficiency is the road to poverty. The 'craze' will not stop, because most of the time doing things for yourself does not make sense unless you actually enjoy doing it.

wutbrodo 9y ago

That's an interesting perspective, but I'm not sure I understand it. The existence of an underclass _is_ a negative IMO, but if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that it's also a hidden negative for those whose time is freed up? Every time I've heard this sentiment or something related expressed by a friend, it's been from someone whose use of their leisure activities are utterly boring. When they open up a new chunk of regular free time, they don't pick up a new instrument or sport or online course, they just do their leisure activities a bit more often: go to the same bars a bit more, watch a bit (or a lot) more TV, go to brunch a bit more often. (To be clear, I enjoy all these things and don't think they're inherently boring, but think that there's obvious a point at which marginal returns are diminishing) By contrast, I and many people I know aren't already in a surplus of leisure time. I've been debating re-orienting my career to reliably require less than 40 hours per week because I simply have a dozen other interests I want to pursue. I enjoy my job, but 40 hours dedicated to _one_ of these pursuits to the detriment of the others is a disproportionately huge amount, especially given that it's 40 daylight hours. Given the long list of time-consuming things that I already find rewarding, I can't relate to the concept that being a slave to the drudgery of menial tasks is somehow something that would be _missing_ from my life if I managed to remove it. To reiterate, I do think that a shift in the economy that leads to increasing outsourcing of menial tasks to an underclass is an issue worth thinking about in terms of what it says about the way our economy is structured and why said underclass is in that position. I just don't buy the self-flagellating claim that doing X hours of penance a week on things you'd rather not do is somehow a moral good.

sliverstorm 9y ago
There's something slightly pathetic about an adult who has forgotten how to cook, clean, fix things, get around, and do all the other basic trappings of living because someone else does it all for them. If you use your time saved on laundry to learn how to paint or chart stars or build a house or a car, that's respectable. But how many of the new upper crust are using their saved time that way?
- wutbrodo 9y ago
  > There's something slightly pathetic about an adult who has forgotten how to cook, clean, fix things, get around, and do all the other basic trappings of living because someone else does it all for them. I assume you feel the same way about hunting/growing your food, disposing of your human waste, constructing your own shelter, etc? No? There's something more-than-slightly pathetic about an adult who thinks that their point in history is somehow a special one, where all of the customs happen to be the "correct" ones in an ahistorical sense. > If you use your time saved on laundry to learn how to paint or chart stars or build a house or a car, that's respectable. But how many of the new upper crust are using their saved time that way? Right...this is exactly what my point was. RodericDay's assumption that this is a bad thing relies on being a certain type of person who already doesn't know what to do with the free time they have. For those of whose who don't have that issue, the idea that it's a moral failing to free up time for things you find less interesting is entirely unsupported.
RodericDay 9y ago
There's a concept called the "hedonistic treadmill", where increasingly expensive and intense thrills are never enough for the people who can afford them. I would argue some people I know are stuck on that. If you can go to the beach you can't go to the nice northern beach, if you can do that you can't do Miami, Miami leads to Thailand, and so on. It's weird to see so many super wealthy people dedicating so much time to super luxurious forms of meditation with gurus, wearing white spandex or whatever, when one can achieve a pretty solid trance-like state and think about their day while doing rote mechanical chores like cleaning and cooking. You also learn to try to avoid messes, since you're the one cleaning them up (gratuitous, "someone else will take care of it" messes are one of the things I miss the least about Peru). You also feel a bit humbled, which is good, especially when everyone around you is an obsequious yes-person. I guess I'd do something I rarely do, and borrow an old-fashioned baby-boomer phrase, and say that maybe it "builds character"? Self-sufficient people were a breath of fresh air.

closeparen 9y ago

You've highlighted one of the most insidious sticking points of American car culture: infantilization of anyone who doesn't participate. You're not a Real Adult unless you're driving alone in your own car. I used to think along these lines. I couldn't wait to get a car once I graduated from college and got my first real job, so that I could finally be one of those real adults who didn't need to beg/borrow/buy rides off of others. The thing I hated most about my suburban upbringing was my reliance on others to get around, and I reacted hard. I slowly realized that following the cultural stigma (and my infatuation with a class of inanimate objects) was, in fact, the childish approach. The adult, pragmatic decision turned out to be a combination of public transit for daily commuting, Uber for leisure (when public transit is too annoying), and hourly rentals for cargo hauling and day trips away from the city. This has nothing to do with outsourced motherhood or being an entitled baby, and everything to do with economics. Land has appreciated enough that a driver's labor as needed is less expensive than a parking space full time. I have dreams of owning my own car again, but as long as I live where parking is $275/mo, that will be the luxury option.

sliverstorm 9y ago
He already mentioned using public transit as a positive thing. "Car" is just one of many forms of getting yourself around, vs. your own limo.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

nickik 9y ago

A strange perspective. I'm perfectly capable of cleaning my apartment. I'm perfectly capable of using public transit (I can't even drive). I'm perfectly capable of doing my own shopping. I could do a lot of things myself but I rather use a maid, a self driving car (once they exist) and home delivery for shopping. Self sufficiency is the road to poverty. The 'craze' will not stop, because most of the time doing things for yourself does not make sense unless you actually enjoy doing it.