4 ms·

The opposite. In my country it's really hard to get any ownership of your content if you are an employee. For instance you work as secretary for a bodyguard com

by erikb 9y ago

The opposite. In my country it's really hard to get any ownership of your content if you are an employee. For instance you work as secretary for a bodyguard company and in your private time lead a pop-rock band. It's not impossible that your boss can grab a share of your music earnings. In this regard open-source is really helpful, because it enables me to write code in one gig that is good enough to earn my pay there, but allows me in a legal way to use the same code in my next gig. Instead of giving my boss monopoly over my long-term viable content, I make it free to everybody and therefore useful to my future self. I would even argue it's good for the boss too, since this way I am more motivated to produce, and 90% of the code used in production is totally useless once the author is gone, since most developers aren't good enough to reuse preexisting code and will instead start writing their own code from scratch.

sverige 9y ago
> For instance you work as secretary for a bodyguard company and in your private time lead a pop-rock band. It's not impossible that your boss can grab a share of your music earnings. What country is this? I can't imagine such a scenario outside of a serfdom.
- debaserab2 9y ago
  Happens all the time in employment contracts written in the United States. Not that they are necessarily enforceable, but it doesn't stop employers from trying.
  - sverige 9y ago
    I've seen the really broad contracts where basically anything you do while employed by them is theirs, but OP said that it would not be out of the question that the boss could get a cut of the earnings from music. Is there any place in the U.S. where a judge would enforce such a contract to that degree?
- adekok 9y ago
  In the US, it's possible for your employer to own your ideas: http://www.salon.com/2004/08/18/evan_brown/ http://www.salon.com/2004/08/18/evan_brown/ Follow-up: https://everything2.com/title/The+Thoughts+of+Evan+Brown https://everything2.com/title/The+Thoughts+of+Evan+Brown Solution: never disclose anything to your employer unless absolutely required. If you have a new idea, keep it quiet until you quit your job. FTA: (After 5 1/2 years of litigation, Judge Curt B. Henderson of Collin County, Texas' 219th District Court ruled in favor of Alcatel, and Brown was obliged to fully disclose the idea to Alcatel and only Alcatel, and to repay in full Alcatel's legal fees of more than $330,000, which according to Brown forced him to sell his house and other assets. During the court case, Brown argued that since his idea had never been committed to paper or physically manifested in any way, there were no grounds for the company to claim ownership of his very thoughts, and he drew comparisons to the fact that an invention cannot be copyrighted or patented until it is transferred from an idea onto paper. He didn't handle his case well, which torpedoed it. But in parts of the US, yes... anything you do during the course of your employment is owned by the employer. As a contractor, I've been asked to sign contracts with similar clauses. Uh... no. I have other customers, and you don't own what they pay me to do. Their typical counter is "But this is a standard clause". Telling them to "no contract" is usually the only option. They just can't understand why an entirely one-sided contract isn't good for me.
  - sverige 9y ago
    I agree with what you are saying, particularly about 1) Evan Brown making his own case weak, and 2) not signing such contracts where it is bad for your business. The articles were valuable - thanks! This is different, though, from the case where you are employed as a secretary for a bodyguard company and then work as a musician outside of your regular employment, isn't it? I mean, suppose Adele was the secretary and then started her musical career during that time. Would the bodyguard company be entitled to royalties from her catalog? I don't think so, and I don't think this case says they would either.
    - adekok 9y ago
      > This is different, though, from the case where you are employed as a secretary for a bodyguard company and then work as a musician outside of your regular employment, isn't it? Not really. If the contract states they own everything you do while you're employed by them, they really do own everything. As for Adele, she's British. Such clauses are generally null and void in the English Common Law system. Your employer owns what they pay you do to, and what you create using employer tools. But if you work as a computer programmer, and invent a better mousetrap at home, your employer can't claim ownership of the mousetrap.
- erikb 9y ago
  I'm not a lawyer. I also thought it works differently until a boss thought he can sue me for a separate business idea I developed. I told my boss about it because I thought he would fund it and we would become rich together. He thought me telling my idea to other possible investors was theft (company secrets etc). My lawyer thought he was right.
  - sverige 9y ago
    I'm sorry to hear that. I guess we can't trust our employers as much as some of us would naturally like to, hoping that it was a good relationship.
    - erikb 9y ago
      Or trust people's willingness to make money. Because of that fight in the end nobody developed that idea, and the money that both sides could have invested into development instead went to the lawyers.
      - e59d134d 9y ago
        I think it is jealousy, not rules or company contracts that make bosses sue their employees. I say that because at one of my previous job, founder actively encouraged side projects and entrepreneurship. But that company still end up shutting down side projects of two of its employees. One was a simple site that documented company's API and had a few sample code snippets. It got popular. The guy running it even received recognition on company's newsletter. Next thing I know is that company forced the guy to handover site and domain to them. Apparently, he worked on it during work hours. He said he never did but who knows. Then another guy's completely unrelated app got shut down due to same reasons. But the guy claims he never even opened app on his personal cell phone while on company property. Everyone in the company had some sort of app but this app got popular & profitable. Jealousy set in. One of his teammate claimed he saw the guys working on the app. He was forced to handover the code. Then company did nothing with the app and removed it from marketplace. Rumor is that he has another app but he tells no one about it. I believe same thing happens in big companies. AFAIK, they don't hire any team to monitor web to make sure their employees haven't released anything on their own. But someone who works with an employee learns about a successful app, gets jelous and tip legal department. Lesson is even if your company is pro side projects, don't tell anyone about it. Humans are jealous creatures and they will find a way to hurt your project.
INTPenis 9y ago
Came here to say the same thing, I've regretted NOT making something open source from the start. Because if it was then I'd be able to take that awesome product with me when I left and benefit from it where it's needed.
- phkahler 9y ago
  Same thing for patents. I was at a company that claimed to be all-in with electric vehicles, so when I devised an awesome motor control algorithm that overcomes all the common challenges in an elegant way I went ahead and got a patent. I figured we'd be doing that for a long time and it would give us an advantage. Fast forward 1-2 years and the company founder retired (he pushed the EV stuff) and upper management wasn't interested. They let the team dissipate to other companies and AFAIK they have no new endeavors in that area. And so my innovation stagnates in the dust bin, patented and unusable by anyone - including me.
albedoa 9y ago
In your country, how are you able to unilaterally open source code of which your employer has partial ownership?
- erikb 9y ago
  1. I tell my boss I need this and only use it on non-business-core code. 2. He understands that open-source != raise. 3. He agrees. (the funny thing is, that the open-source code a programmer can benefit the most on is rarely that what a business considers its core value, e.g. I write an open-source package manager for our plugins that I can reuse to bring plugins to later jobs, boss considers the plugin's contents his core value)

by erikb 9y ago

sverige 9y ago

> For instance you work as secretary for a bodyguard company and in your private time lead a pop-rock band. It's not impossible that your boss can grab a share of your music earnings. What country is this? I can't imagine such a scenario outside of a serfdom.

debaserab2 9y ago
Happens all the time in employment contracts written in the United States. Not that they are necessarily enforceable, but it doesn't stop employers from trying.
- sverige 9y ago
  I've seen the really broad contracts where basically anything you do while employed by them is theirs, but OP said that it would not be out of the question that the boss could get a cut of the earnings from music. Is there any place in the U.S. where a judge would enforce such a contract to that degree?
adekok 9y ago
In the US, it's possible for your employer to own your ideas: http://www.salon.com/2004/08/18/evan_brown/ http://www.salon.com/2004/08/18/evan_brown/ Follow-up: https://everything2.com/title/The+Thoughts+of+Evan+Brown https://everything2.com/title/The+Thoughts+of+Evan+Brown Solution: never disclose anything to your employer unless absolutely required. If you have a new idea, keep it quiet until you quit your job. FTA: (After 5 1/2 years of litigation, Judge Curt B. Henderson of Collin County, Texas' 219th District Court ruled in favor of Alcatel, and Brown was obliged to fully disclose the idea to Alcatel and only Alcatel, and to repay in full Alcatel's legal fees of more than $330,000, which according to Brown forced him to sell his house and other assets. During the court case, Brown argued that since his idea had never been committed to paper or physically manifested in any way, there were no grounds for the company to claim ownership of his very thoughts, and he drew comparisons to the fact that an invention cannot be copyrighted or patented until it is transferred from an idea onto paper. He didn't handle his case well, which torpedoed it. But in parts of the US, yes... anything you do during the course of your employment is owned by the employer. As a contractor, I've been asked to sign contracts with similar clauses. Uh... no. I have other customers, and you don't own what they pay me to do. Their typical counter is "But this is a standard clause". Telling them to "no contract" is usually the only option. They just can't understand why an entirely one-sided contract isn't good for me.
- sverige 9y ago
  I agree with what you are saying, particularly about 1) Evan Brown making his own case weak, and 2) not signing such contracts where it is bad for your business. The articles were valuable - thanks! This is different, though, from the case where you are employed as a secretary for a bodyguard company and then work as a musician outside of your regular employment, isn't it? I mean, suppose Adele was the secretary and then started her musical career during that time. Would the bodyguard company be entitled to royalties from her catalog? I don't think so, and I don't think this case says they would either.
  - adekok 9y ago
    > This is different, though, from the case where you are employed as a secretary for a bodyguard company and then work as a musician outside of your regular employment, isn't it? Not really. If the contract states they own everything you do while you're employed by them, they really do own everything. As for Adele, she's British. Such clauses are generally null and void in the English Common Law system. Your employer owns what they pay you do to, and what you create using employer tools. But if you work as a computer programmer, and invent a better mousetrap at home, your employer can't claim ownership of the mousetrap.
erikb 9y ago
I'm not a lawyer. I also thought it works differently until a boss thought he can sue me for a separate business idea I developed. I told my boss about it because I thought he would fund it and we would become rich together. He thought me telling my idea to other possible investors was theft (company secrets etc). My lawyer thought he was right.
- sverige 9y ago
  I'm sorry to hear that. I guess we can't trust our employers as much as some of us would naturally like to, hoping that it was a good relationship.
  - erikb 9y ago
    Or trust people's willingness to make money. Because of that fight in the end nobody developed that idea, and the money that both sides could have invested into development instead went to the lawyers.
    - e59d134d 9y ago
      I think it is jealousy, not rules or company contracts that make bosses sue their employees. I say that because at one of my previous job, founder actively encouraged side projects and entrepreneurship. But that company still end up shutting down side projects of two of its employees. One was a simple site that documented company's API and had a few sample code snippets. It got popular. The guy running it even received recognition on company's newsletter. Next thing I know is that company forced the guy to handover site and domain to them. Apparently, he worked on it during work hours. He said he never did but who knows. Then another guy's completely unrelated app got shut down due to same reasons. But the guy claims he never even opened app on his personal cell phone while on company property. Everyone in the company had some sort of app but this app got popular & profitable. Jealousy set in. One of his teammate claimed he saw the guys working on the app. He was forced to handover the code. Then company did nothing with the app and removed it from marketplace. Rumor is that he has another app but he tells no one about it. I believe same thing happens in big companies. AFAIK, they don't hire any team to monitor web to make sure their employees haven't released anything on their own. But someone who works with an employee learns about a successful app, gets jelous and tip legal department. Lesson is even if your company is pro side projects, don't tell anyone about it. Humans are jealous creatures and they will find a way to hurt your project.

INTPenis 9y ago

Came here to say the same thing, I've regretted NOT making something open source from the start. Because if it was then I'd be able to take that awesome product with me when I left and benefit from it where it's needed.

phkahler 9y ago
Same thing for patents. I was at a company that claimed to be all-in with electric vehicles, so when I devised an awesome motor control algorithm that overcomes all the common challenges in an elegant way I went ahead and got a patent. I figured we'd be doing that for a long time and it would give us an advantage. Fast forward 1-2 years and the company founder retired (he pushed the EV stuff) and upper management wasn't interested. They let the team dissipate to other companies and AFAIK they have no new endeavors in that area. And so my innovation stagnates in the dust bin, patented and unusable by anyone - including me.

albedoa 9y ago

In your country, how are you able to unilaterally open source code of which your employer has partial ownership?

erikb 9y ago
1. I tell my boss I need this and only use it on non-business-core code. 2. He understands that open-source != raise. 3. He agrees. (the funny thing is, that the open-source code a programmer can benefit the most on is rarely that what a business considers its core value, e.g. I write an open-source package manager for our plugins that I can reuse to bring plugins to later jobs, boss considers the plugin's contents his core value)