5 ms·

it's really astonishing to see PHP still alive and kicking, despite all the backlashes it has received over the years. whatever it is they are doing, they must

it's really astonishing to see PHP still alive and kicking, despite all the backlashes it has received over the years. whatever it is they are doing, they must be doing something right.

sroussey 9y ago
Kids..
vatotemking 9y ago
Long time PHP dev here. Note: These are my personal observation and opinion. The usage you see are mostly from people already invested in PHP. However, I'm starting to see fewer new PHP devs. Some of the talented devs I know of have migrated to other "cool" languages. There are fewer PHP jobs than they use to be. I also observed less activity in PHP related subreddits. Its position as the #1 web server language has already been taken over by nodejs, and the remaining chunk eaten by Go, Python, C# (as ms tech goes open-source) and other languages. I dont see PHP going away anytime soon, but I dont see it gaining more users over time.
- greenhouse_gas 9y ago
  I think that the cheap VPS is the ultimate cause. 15 years ago (when, BTW, Python was already a thing) you _had_ to use PHP, unless you had extra money to spend on a more "scalable" technology (so enterprises, who had money, frequently chose Java). It was a monopoly like JS was/is a monopoly - you want to write code for a browser - you'd better know JS. Now, between AWS and DO, you can with relative ease start up in Go, Node, or Python, and there's no need for PHP.
  - vatotemking 9y ago
    I fully agree. Its all about how to do x stuff at y cost. PHP served a market segment. Now the other languages can do the same, if not better, at the same cost.
  - cutler 9y ago
    Or Linode with 2x the RAM Digital Ocean offers.
    - wolco 9y ago
      or vulr half the cost
  - fulafel 9y ago
    To expand on thing-ness, the first public Python release was 26.5 years ago. 15 years ago Python was already 10+ years old and was a very popular language.
- WA 9y ago
  > Its position as the #1 web server language has already been taken over by nodejs How so? Because when I put a PHP script on a server with "<?php echo 'Hello world' . date('Y' time()); ?>" that is a one-liner and I'm sure it'll work for the next 20 years. With nodejs, I have to implement the whole webserver and then my web app is also a server, even if it's "only" 20 lines of code and I need other tools to make sure that this server never crashes or automatically reboots and all that stuff. Imho, the main benefit of PHP is: You can write a script today and because the language is mature, it doesn't change all the time and you can be quite confident that it'll keep running for another decade.
  - mmcnl 9y ago
    With PHP you also need to implement a webserver (Apache), so you're one-liner is also actually not a one-liner at all. Also, pick the right tool for the right job. Who writes code these days that silently sit still for a decade? Hardly anyone. And even if you do, I don't think Python or Node will suddenly stop working (as you're implying).
    - tyingq 9y ago
      >With PHP you also need to implement a webserver (Apache), so you're one-liner is also actually not a one-liner at all With the "https everywhere" movement, the same is practically true for node. You will likely be configuring some outside proxy/webserver.
      - vatotemking 9y ago
        FYI you can enable https without the need for an external webserver
  - vatotemking 9y ago
    > How so? Because when I put a PHP script on a server with "<?php echo 'Hello world' . date('Y' time()); ?>" that is a one-liner and I'm sure it'll work for the next 20 years. Web hostings have abstracted this for you. In reality, you need to install Apache or Nginx first. PHP does have a built-in server but its for testing only not production. Nodejs is both a server and a webapp. You just need to install nodejs at bare minimum to run a "hello world". Try installing nodejs and php on DO to see what I mean. With regards to nodejs overtaking PHP, various stats from various sources back this up. > it doesn't change all the time and you can be quite confident that it'll keep running for another decade. Now thats just false. The switch to PHP7 from PHP5 alone has many BC breaks. Latest Drupal is a rewrite. Laravel LTS dont last "a decade". Code breaks all the the time in PHP land. The only thing that dont change in PHP world is WordPress.....
- k__ 9y ago
  I don't know, but I didn't like my PHP years and it wasn't mostly because of the language. Almost every PHP dev I knew did his own CMS and they were mostly horrible blobs of code and the "big" projects weren't any better. TYPO3 and WordPress were a mess and they were considered the industry standard... I worked with code-bases that had files with 10k lines. Everyone had to reinvent the wheel and all were bad. It was like when someone started programming, they read somewhere that PHP is easy and so they started with it and since it was so easy to get the first "dynamic page" in the wild, they didn't bother to learn much about software engineering and even those who did simply followed the patterns blindly and ended up with the same mess, but different. Somehow Node projects do better and I guess it's because there are more resources out there to "really" learn how to do things. On the other hand I have the feeling people are getting less independent. Some are crying for better docs or tutorials, while I figured it out while reading the source or browsing a few minutes on issues.
- cutler 9y ago
  Yes, if you search Indeed.com's API by job title there are currently more Node.js jobs (384) than PHP (268) in London (excluding WordPress, Drupal, Joomla & Magento).
  - Lazare 9y ago
    I'm not sure that's entirely fair; a lot of those jobs you've excluded will be serious PHP coding jobs, not just "install and configure a plugin" sort of things. There'd be a lot fewer node jobs if you managed to exclude all the ones that used express. :)
    - cutler 9y ago
      That's not a fair comparison. I didn't exclude PHP frameworks.
- wolco 9y ago
  Very long time php dev here. What you are seeing is the relative fall from the crowd that moved in after the facebook social network movie. Much of the php hate started around this time. Over the last year people are moving back because of things like Laravel, composer, PHP 7 and issues in other languages. Will take 4 years to reach a peak.
romanovcode 9y ago
Cheap Hosting + Wordpress = 40% of the internet. PHP itself has absolutely nothing to do with this.

it's really astonishing to see PHP still alive and kicking, despite all the backlashes it has received over the years. whatever it is they are doing, they must be doing something right.

sroussey 9y ago

Kids..

vatotemking 9y ago

Long time PHP dev here. Note: These are my personal observation and opinion. The usage you see are mostly from people already invested in PHP. However, I'm starting to see fewer new PHP devs. Some of the talented devs I know of have migrated to other "cool" languages. There are fewer PHP jobs than they use to be. I also observed less activity in PHP related subreddits. Its position as the #1 web server language has already been taken over by nodejs, and the remaining chunk eaten by Go, Python, C# (as ms tech goes open-source) and other languages. I dont see PHP going away anytime soon, but I dont see it gaining more users over time.

greenhouse_gas 9y ago
I think that the cheap VPS is the ultimate cause. 15 years ago (when, BTW, Python was already a thing) you _had_ to use PHP, unless you had extra money to spend on a more "scalable" technology (so enterprises, who had money, frequently chose Java). It was a monopoly like JS was/is a monopoly - you want to write code for a browser - you'd better know JS. Now, between AWS and DO, you can with relative ease start up in Go, Node, or Python, and there's no need for PHP.
- vatotemking 9y ago
  I fully agree. Its all about how to do x stuff at y cost. PHP served a market segment. Now the other languages can do the same, if not better, at the same cost.
- cutler 9y ago
  Or Linode with 2x the RAM Digital Ocean offers.
  - wolco 9y ago
    or vulr half the cost
- fulafel 9y ago
  To expand on thing-ness, the first public Python release was 26.5 years ago. 15 years ago Python was already 10+ years old and was a very popular language.
WA 9y ago
> Its position as the #1 web server language has already been taken over by nodejs How so? Because when I put a PHP script on a server with "<?php echo 'Hello world' . date('Y' time()); ?>" that is a one-liner and I'm sure it'll work for the next 20 years. With nodejs, I have to implement the whole webserver and then my web app is also a server, even if it's "only" 20 lines of code and I need other tools to make sure that this server never crashes or automatically reboots and all that stuff. Imho, the main benefit of PHP is: You can write a script today and because the language is mature, it doesn't change all the time and you can be quite confident that it'll keep running for another decade.
- mmcnl 9y ago
  With PHP you also need to implement a webserver (Apache), so you're one-liner is also actually not a one-liner at all. Also, pick the right tool for the right job. Who writes code these days that silently sit still for a decade? Hardly anyone. And even if you do, I don't think Python or Node will suddenly stop working (as you're implying).
  - tyingq 9y ago
    >With PHP you also need to implement a webserver (Apache), so you're one-liner is also actually not a one-liner at all With the "https everywhere" movement, the same is practically true for node. You will likely be configuring some outside proxy/webserver.
    - vatotemking 9y ago
      FYI you can enable https without the need for an external webserver
- vatotemking 9y ago
  > How so? Because when I put a PHP script on a server with "<?php echo 'Hello world' . date('Y' time()); ?>" that is a one-liner and I'm sure it'll work for the next 20 years. Web hostings have abstracted this for you. In reality, you need to install Apache or Nginx first. PHP does have a built-in server but its for testing only not production. Nodejs is both a server and a webapp. You just need to install nodejs at bare minimum to run a "hello world". Try installing nodejs and php on DO to see what I mean. With regards to nodejs overtaking PHP, various stats from various sources back this up. > it doesn't change all the time and you can be quite confident that it'll keep running for another decade. Now thats just false. The switch to PHP7 from PHP5 alone has many BC breaks. Latest Drupal is a rewrite. Laravel LTS dont last "a decade". Code breaks all the the time in PHP land. The only thing that dont change in PHP world is WordPress.....
k__ 9y ago
I don't know, but I didn't like my PHP years and it wasn't mostly because of the language. Almost every PHP dev I knew did his own CMS and they were mostly horrible blobs of code and the "big" projects weren't any better. TYPO3 and WordPress were a mess and they were considered the industry standard... I worked with code-bases that had files with 10k lines. Everyone had to reinvent the wheel and all were bad. It was like when someone started programming, they read somewhere that PHP is easy and so they started with it and since it was so easy to get the first "dynamic page" in the wild, they didn't bother to learn much about software engineering and even those who did simply followed the patterns blindly and ended up with the same mess, but different. Somehow Node projects do better and I guess it's because there are more resources out there to "really" learn how to do things. On the other hand I have the feeling people are getting less independent. Some are crying for better docs or tutorials, while I figured it out while reading the source or browsing a few minutes on issues.
cutler 9y ago
Yes, if you search Indeed.com's API by job title there are currently more Node.js jobs (384) than PHP (268) in London (excluding WordPress, Drupal, Joomla & Magento).
- Lazare 9y ago
  I'm not sure that's entirely fair; a lot of those jobs you've excluded will be serious PHP coding jobs, not just "install and configure a plugin" sort of things. There'd be a lot fewer node jobs if you managed to exclude all the ones that used express. :)
  - cutler 9y ago
    That's not a fair comparison. I didn't exclude PHP frameworks.
wolco 9y ago
Very long time php dev here. What you are seeing is the relative fall from the crowd that moved in after the facebook social network movie. Much of the php hate started around this time. Over the last year people are moving back because of things like Laravel, composer, PHP 7 and issues in other languages. Will take 4 years to reach a peak.

romanovcode 9y ago

Cheap Hosting + Wordpress = 40% of the internet. PHP itself has absolutely nothing to do with this.