4 ms·

Happy to see PHP be taken more seriously around here. Trust me, we're not all moronic programmers using register globals, magic quotes, and other abominations o

Happy to see PHP be taken more seriously around here. Trust me, we're not all moronic programmers using register globals, magic quotes, and other abominations originally available in PHP. This is a pretty cool project.

eru 16y ago
I guess PHP parallels C++ in this respect.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  I'd argue the situation with PHP was in fact much worse than it ever was with C++, but there are some parallels. The bigger problem with PHP is that there is no consistency and C++ always had some of that. The naming of library functions alone can drive you bonkers. It's rare that I have to look up the names of functions in languages that I've used for a decade or more, with PHP it still happens with some regularity. I know I could use an IDE to mitigate that but for some reason IDEs and me don't get along, with the exception of Borlands C Builder, which was really pretty good.
mattew 16y ago
I think PHP suffers from some of the same issues that VB6 suffered from in terms of inexperienced programmers. With VB6, someone who was not as much of a programmer as we all are could write themselves into a massive mess. I have found when writing PHP code if you are careful, you can build things with decent design patterns and consistency. Sure, its not as clean as a lot of languages, but it sure is easier for me to figure out what is going on with PHP code someone else wrote compared to Perl or Ruby code.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  This single biggest issue I've found when working with PHP for larger projects is that even if you are a disciplined programmer you get to the point where the includes will eat up your performance and your memory requirements will become larger. See drupal as an example of this. You can get around some of that by using a php accelerator but it would seem to me that something like that ought to be part of the basic distribution.
  - asnyder 16y ago
    That's what autoload is for. It's been around since PHP 5.0. http://php.net/manual/en/language.oop5.autoload.php http://php.net/manual/en/language.oop5.autoload.php and allows you to require the necessary files or classes only when you need them. Seems like they solved this problem to me.
    - gaoshan 16y ago
      I use frameworks (Zend, CodeIgniter) for all PHP projects except protoyping HTML templates (like, when knocking out a quick page with placeholder data and functionality to show a client). The hate poured on PHP for functionality that I have never, ever used (read pretty much any "PHP sucks because..." post and notice that the majority of the complaints are for things that real PHP developers are well aware of and effortlessly deal with) gets tiresome to hear about. Use it following some basic, current, best practices and it is fast, easy and perfectly fine for developing with.
    - jacquesm 16y ago
      Thank you! I must have missed that bit in the announcements.
- ams6110 16y ago
  Same largely applies to "classic" ASP and VBScript. You can write fairly well architected systems in that environment, but you have to discipline yourself to do it; the language won't really help you.
- wazoox 16y ago
  If you understand PHP and not Perl or Ruby, then I suppose you don't master regular expressions.
neilk 16y ago
I think you're suggesting that PHP has somehow "arrived" because there's a LISP written in PHP. I don't agree. The LISP here is a neat project but I can't think of a practical niche. Sandboxed hosted scripting is praiseworthy, but most customers would want that in Javascript or PHP itself, not as a Lisp. PHP already powers three of the top 10 websites. What was left to prove?
- jacquesm 16y ago
  > I think you're suggesting that PHP has somehow "arrived" because there's a LISP written in PHP. Where do you read that ? He's not making any suggestion of the kind, he's simply happy that PHP is not always scoffed on, and this piece of code is a really good example of what you can do when you use PHP properly. That comment could apply to plenty of other PHP projects. HN has a bit of a history of ridiculing PHP and the people who program in it. > I don't agree. With who ? Your strawman ? The LISP here is a neat little stepping stone, just like almost any other 'language X implemented in Y' it is not currently meant as either a high performance solution or a production ready environment, just a neat little hack, easy to understand. If you're in front of a river and someone builds you a rope bridge across you don't complain about the fact that it won't handle 6 lanes of highway traffic, you're just happy someone took the time and trouble to build it. If you don't want to use the bridge then fine, if you do then it's great. What's left to prove is that there is a wrongness in the attitude towards certain classes of languages. I think PG is partly to blame for this with his 'blub' classification of programmers and languages. As though those that program in language X are somehow better than those that don't. To tie LISP and PHP together in this way shows that that argument holds no water at all, and for some that may change their minds, which is good.

eru 16y ago

I guess PHP parallels C++ in this respect.

jacquesm 16y ago
I'd argue the situation with PHP was in fact much worse than it ever was with C++, but there are some parallels. The bigger problem with PHP is that there is no consistency and C++ always had some of that. The naming of library functions alone can drive you bonkers. It's rare that I have to look up the names of functions in languages that I've used for a decade or more, with PHP it still happens with some regularity. I know I could use an IDE to mitigate that but for some reason IDEs and me don't get along, with the exception of Borlands C Builder, which was really pretty good.

mattew 16y ago

I think PHP suffers from some of the same issues that VB6 suffered from in terms of inexperienced programmers. With VB6, someone who was not as much of a programmer as we all are could write themselves into a massive mess. I have found when writing PHP code if you are careful, you can build things with decent design patterns and consistency. Sure, its not as clean as a lot of languages, but it sure is easier for me to figure out what is going on with PHP code someone else wrote compared to Perl or Ruby code.

jacquesm 16y ago
This single biggest issue I've found when working with PHP for larger projects is that even if you are a disciplined programmer you get to the point where the includes will eat up your performance and your memory requirements will become larger. See drupal as an example of this. You can get around some of that by using a php accelerator but it would seem to me that something like that ought to be part of the basic distribution.
- asnyder 16y ago
  That's what autoload is for. It's been around since PHP 5.0. http://php.net/manual/en/language.oop5.autoload.php http://php.net/manual/en/language.oop5.autoload.php and allows you to require the necessary files or classes only when you need them. Seems like they solved this problem to me.
  - gaoshan 16y ago
    I use frameworks (Zend, CodeIgniter) for all PHP projects except protoyping HTML templates (like, when knocking out a quick page with placeholder data and functionality to show a client). The hate poured on PHP for functionality that I have never, ever used (read pretty much any "PHP sucks because..." post and notice that the majority of the complaints are for things that real PHP developers are well aware of and effortlessly deal with) gets tiresome to hear about. Use it following some basic, current, best practices and it is fast, easy and perfectly fine for developing with.
  - jacquesm 16y ago
    Thank you! I must have missed that bit in the announcements.
ams6110 16y ago
Same largely applies to "classic" ASP and VBScript. You can write fairly well architected systems in that environment, but you have to discipline yourself to do it; the language won't really help you.
wazoox 16y ago
If you understand PHP and not Perl or Ruby, then I suppose you don't master regular expressions.

neilk 16y ago

I think you're suggesting that PHP has somehow "arrived" because there's a LISP written in PHP. I don't agree. The LISP here is a neat project but I can't think of a practical niche. Sandboxed hosted scripting is praiseworthy, but most customers would want that in Javascript or PHP itself, not as a Lisp. PHP already powers three of the top 10 websites. What was left to prove?

jacquesm 16y ago
> I think you're suggesting that PHP has somehow "arrived" because there's a LISP written in PHP. Where do you read that ? He's not making any suggestion of the kind, he's simply happy that PHP is not always scoffed on, and this piece of code is a really good example of what you can do when you use PHP properly. That comment could apply to plenty of other PHP projects. HN has a bit of a history of ridiculing PHP and the people who program in it. > I don't agree. With who ? Your strawman ? The LISP here is a neat little stepping stone, just like almost any other 'language X implemented in Y' it is not currently meant as either a high performance solution or a production ready environment, just a neat little hack, easy to understand. If you're in front of a river and someone builds you a rope bridge across you don't complain about the fact that it won't handle 6 lanes of highway traffic, you're just happy someone took the time and trouble to build it. If you don't want to use the bridge then fine, if you do then it's great. What's left to prove is that there is a wrongness in the attitude towards certain classes of languages. I think PG is partly to blame for this with his 'blub' classification of programmers and languages. As though those that program in language X are somehow better than those that don't. To tie LISP and PHP together in this way shows that that argument holds no water at all, and for some that may change their minds, which is good.