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> There are many legitimate uses of Bitcoin What are those. I have claimed here and will repeatedly do so -- there are none. I mean, sure, there are a few comp

by chx 9y ago

> There are many legitimate uses of Bitcoin What are those. I have claimed here and will repeatedly do so -- there are none. I mean, sure, there are a few companies which integrate the sell-your-bitcoins-buy-our-product in one go but the volume of that is near irrelevant. And no, international transfers do not count as a usage because not only the sender needs to buy bitcoins the seller needs to sell them too...

andrepd 9y ago
You mean, what are legitimate uses for decentralized internet cash? Besides everything that physical cash is good for, plus many more uses made possible because you can send money without exchanging physical tokens? Come on...
- dboreham 9y ago
  Physical cash is great for tax evasion and criminal activity.
  - andrepd 9y ago
    Erm, it's also good for many other purposes? Computers can be used to watch child pornography. What point am I making with this phrase? None.
honestlyreally 9y ago
Very bizarre to state the obvious use cases, then nullify it with handwaving. The current cost to move $10m of bitcoin across international borders is about $1. Attempt the same via conventional means and you'll quickly realise it's benefits go beyond monetary efficiency. As for current working use cases Factom[0] stores an auditable timestamped data trail in a merkle tree structure, which is then anchored into the bitcoin blockchain. This is a tech minded site, I would hope people here understand the value of immutability. Real immutability, data that can't be altered or undone in anyway. Many seem upset at bitcoins meteoric rise and the rampant speculation for good reason, but make no mistake blockchains will be around long after we are gone. [0] www.factom.org
- 21 9y ago
  I agree with you that bitcoin is a terrific innovation, with many use cases. But at the moment moving $10m through bitcoin is not one of them. For one, I don't need to be an op-sec expert to ensure that my money doesn't just vanish because I made a mistake or something was hacked somewhere.
- freddie_mercury 9y ago
  I have moved USD across international borders hundreds of times for free. Every international bank supports it. The same is probably true of EUR but I have no experience with it. You have mixed transferring a currency with converting one currency into another. You meant transferring $10m of USD to EUR isn't free. Which is true. But neither is converting $10m of Bitcoin to Ethereum.
- nikanj 9y ago
  What's the legal status for moving $10m across international borders like that?
  - mschuster91 9y ago
    You don't, as a rich person, want to have all your assets in a single jurisdiction. You want to spread them as far as possible, for multiple reasons, and for this you need a cheap transfer way: - resilience against political "changes" (esp. China, Russia); money that is under foreign, unaffiliated regulatory regime cannot be seized by authorities at home - taxes: you want to secure your cash/assets from sudden taxes on property/equity - resilience against a bank going literally bankrupt. this happened in the financial crisis, even in the EU, and one bank's customers IIRC lost everything above 100.000 € on their accounts. Also, if you run an international business with regional offices or such, you don't want to spend huge amounts of both time and money when transferring company funds or buying machinery from vendors in other jurisdictions.
    - dboreham 9y ago
      Rich people who want to move $Ne+6 around without using a bank is an important and common use case.
StavrosK 9y ago
"What are the legitimate uses of Bitcoin? I have claimed here and will repeatedly do so -- there are none. I mean, sure, there are plenty, but apart from those, there are none."
choffman 9y ago
It is much safer for me to buy things on the Internet with cryptocurrencies than credit cards. It seems like every few months there's a huge leak of customers and credit card information.
- reefoctopus 9y ago
  I'm a fan of bitcoin, but in this case I disagree. It is safer to sell things on the internet if you accept bitcoin, but it's more risky if you're the buyer. You can chargeback a credit card if you don't get what you paid for. You can't get your bitcoin back.
rothbardrand 9y ago
That you might exchange bitcoins for cash doesn't make international transfers an invalid use case. You don't seem to realize it but in many countries people who earn USD working for mechanical turk and the like end up losing %50 in conversion. Purse.io lets you buy anything Amazon sells, just about, for bitcoin at a %5 discount (that %5 is not coincidence, it's the effective cost of credit cards.)

by chx 9y ago

andrepd 9y ago

You mean, what are legitimate uses for decentralized internet cash? Besides everything that physical cash is good for, plus many more uses made possible because you can send money without exchanging physical tokens? Come on...

dboreham 9y ago
Physical cash is great for tax evasion and criminal activity.
- andrepd 9y ago
  Erm, it's also good for many other purposes? Computers can be used to watch child pornography. What point am I making with this phrase? None.

honestlyreally 9y ago

Very bizarre to state the obvious use cases, then nullify it with handwaving. The current cost to move $10m of bitcoin across international borders is about $1. Attempt the same via conventional means and you'll quickly realise it's benefits go beyond monetary efficiency. As for current working use cases Factom[0] stores an auditable timestamped data trail in a merkle tree structure, which is then anchored into the bitcoin blockchain. This is a tech minded site, I would hope people here understand the value of immutability. Real immutability, data that can't be altered or undone in anyway. Many seem upset at bitcoins meteoric rise and the rampant speculation for good reason, but make no mistake blockchains will be around long after we are gone. [0] www.factom.org

21 9y ago
I agree with you that bitcoin is a terrific innovation, with many use cases. But at the moment moving $10m through bitcoin is not one of them. For one, I don't need to be an op-sec expert to ensure that my money doesn't just vanish because I made a mistake or something was hacked somewhere.
freddie_mercury 9y ago
I have moved USD across international borders hundreds of times for free. Every international bank supports it. The same is probably true of EUR but I have no experience with it. You have mixed transferring a currency with converting one currency into another. You meant transferring $10m of USD to EUR isn't free. Which is true. But neither is converting $10m of Bitcoin to Ethereum.
nikanj 9y ago
What's the legal status for moving $10m across international borders like that?
- mschuster91 9y ago
  You don't, as a rich person, want to have all your assets in a single jurisdiction. You want to spread them as far as possible, for multiple reasons, and for this you need a cheap transfer way: - resilience against political "changes" (esp. China, Russia); money that is under foreign, unaffiliated regulatory regime cannot be seized by authorities at home - taxes: you want to secure your cash/assets from sudden taxes on property/equity - resilience against a bank going literally bankrupt. this happened in the financial crisis, even in the EU, and one bank's customers IIRC lost everything above 100.000 € on their accounts. Also, if you run an international business with regional offices or such, you don't want to spend huge amounts of both time and money when transferring company funds or buying machinery from vendors in other jurisdictions.
  - dboreham 9y ago
    Rich people who want to move $Ne+6 around without using a bank is an important and common use case.

StavrosK 9y ago

"What are the legitimate uses of Bitcoin? I have claimed here and will repeatedly do so -- there are none. I mean, sure, there are plenty, but apart from those, there are none."

choffman 9y ago

It is much safer for me to buy things on the Internet with cryptocurrencies than credit cards. It seems like every few months there's a huge leak of customers and credit card information.

reefoctopus 9y ago
I'm a fan of bitcoin, but in this case I disagree. It is safer to sell things on the internet if you accept bitcoin, but it's more risky if you're the buyer. You can chargeback a credit card if you don't get what you paid for. You can't get your bitcoin back.

rothbardrand 9y ago

That you might exchange bitcoins for cash doesn't make international transfers an invalid use case. You don't seem to realize it but in many countries people who earn USD working for mechanical turk and the like end up losing %50 in conversion. Purse.io lets you buy anything Amazon sells, just about, for bitcoin at a %5 discount (that %5 is not coincidence, it's the effective cost of credit cards.)