6 ms·

And being dishonest does?

by noir-york 9y ago

rapsey 9y ago
mongodb
- mhluongo 9y ago
  Justified response IMO. Their sales machine has left a significant negative impact on the industry by setting impossible expectations
- 1_2__4 9y ago
  There are two types of Mongo shops in the world: 1) Their product hasn't launched yet. 2) They desperately regret using Mongo and are trying to get rid of it.
  - cookiecaper 9y ago
    You seriously underestimate the depth of commitment that people have to their decisions. MongoDB is undeniably a wreck (though I hear it's been getting better in recent years), but I've come across very few shops who took a look at the wreck and said "This was a mistake". Rather, they usually just say "Let's buy more consulting services, being on the cutting-edge is expensive but it's worth it!" Everything is a mind game. People have identified their use of things like Mongo as being on the forefront of a developing technology, it makes them feel important and interesting. Try taking that meaning away from them and see how it goes for you. The practicalities of actually using the thing hardly matter. And is the guy who initially advocated for Mongo going to show up with his tail between his legs and admit he made a mistake? Nope, even if he wants to, that would be a big hit for him career-wise and after our mid-20s most of us have been disabused of our egalitarian notions and know better than to do that. RethinkDB is the "good engineering" counter to MongoDB. Didn't oversell, worked hard to build a world-class product that targeted the same general product class. Compare for yourself and see what you get by proceeding with an engineering emphasis. Marketing is mandatory, and developers are naive if they believe they or their field is immune.
  - specialist 9y ago
    3) Incompetent and don't realize their turgid stack isn't working correctly.
  - specialist 9y ago
    3) Incompetent and don't realize their turgid stack isn't working correctly.
jack9 9y ago
This is a core strategy of con-men. The recent discussion between Sam Harris and Scott Adams might be interesting to you. Take into account that moral and good are synonymous with truth, to Sam Harris (strict rationalist) and Scott Adams is a consequentialist/utilitarian.
cookiecaper 9y ago
Um, yes? We've redefined parameters around "honest" to include sales and marketing efforts because they are practically essential for modern life, but from a basic perspective, there are definite lies by omission and very likely some lies by commission in virtually all attempts to get people to buy stuff. There's also a lowest common denominator effect, where the other guy's marketing makes false claim X, and if your marketing doesn't, you are at a big disadvantage. Most of the time competitors aren't dumb enough to make a claim that is so blatantly false as to be legally actionable; as long as they steer clear of that high bar, they will make a lot of gains by making a misleading claim (note: they may make a lot of gains even if they can be held legally accountable, as that is a slow and expensive process, and the expected cost/penalty may fall far short of the expected profit).
freshhawk 9y ago
Evidence says "Hell yes. Obviously."

And being dishonest does?

rapsey 9y ago

mongodb

mhluongo 9y ago
Justified response IMO. Their sales machine has left a significant negative impact on the industry by setting impossible expectations
1_2__4 9y ago
There are two types of Mongo shops in the world: 1) Their product hasn't launched yet. 2) They desperately regret using Mongo and are trying to get rid of it.
- cookiecaper 9y ago
  You seriously underestimate the depth of commitment that people have to their decisions. MongoDB is undeniably a wreck (though I hear it's been getting better in recent years), but I've come across very few shops who took a look at the wreck and said "This was a mistake". Rather, they usually just say "Let's buy more consulting services, being on the cutting-edge is expensive but it's worth it!" Everything is a mind game. People have identified their use of things like Mongo as being on the forefront of a developing technology, it makes them feel important and interesting. Try taking that meaning away from them and see how it goes for you. The practicalities of actually using the thing hardly matter. And is the guy who initially advocated for Mongo going to show up with his tail between his legs and admit he made a mistake? Nope, even if he wants to, that would be a big hit for him career-wise and after our mid-20s most of us have been disabused of our egalitarian notions and know better than to do that. RethinkDB is the "good engineering" counter to MongoDB. Didn't oversell, worked hard to build a world-class product that targeted the same general product class. Compare for yourself and see what you get by proceeding with an engineering emphasis. Marketing is mandatory, and developers are naive if they believe they or their field is immune.
- specialist 9y ago
  3) Incompetent and don't realize their turgid stack isn't working correctly.
- specialist 9y ago
  3) Incompetent and don't realize their turgid stack isn't working correctly.

jack9 9y ago

This is a core strategy of con-men. The recent discussion between Sam Harris and Scott Adams might be interesting to you. Take into account that moral and good are synonymous with truth, to Sam Harris (strict rationalist) and Scott Adams is a consequentialist/utilitarian.

cookiecaper 9y ago

Um, yes? We've redefined parameters around "honest" to include sales and marketing efforts because they are practically essential for modern life, but from a basic perspective, there are definite lies by omission and very likely some lies by commission in virtually all attempts to get people to buy stuff. There's also a lowest common denominator effect, where the other guy's marketing makes false claim X, and if your marketing doesn't, you are at a big disadvantage. Most of the time competitors aren't dumb enough to make a claim that is so blatantly false as to be legally actionable; as long as they steer clear of that high bar, they will make a lot of gains by making a misleading claim (note: they may make a lot of gains even if they can be held legally accountable, as that is a slow and expensive process, and the expected cost/penalty may fall far short of the expected profit).

freshhawk 9y ago

Evidence says "Hell yes. Obviously."