5 ms·

This kind of fairytale claim from Kreps does real harm in the world. I spend a not-insignificant amount of time in my job trying to convince junior developers t

by 1_2__4 9y ago

This kind of fairytale claim from Kreps does real harm in the world. I spend a not-insignificant amount of time in my job trying to convince junior developers that no, there is no magic fairy dust that lets them stop having to think about CAP theorems, eventual consistency, distributed consensus, split brain failures, and so on. So when Confluent (and similar) come along with it just wild claims but demonstrably false ones by the limits imposed by reality it makes my job a million times harder (and the developee's code a million times worse). On the other hand when companies and maintainers are honest about the limitations it allows for a much easier conversation about how those limitations affect our products and how to trade off the mitigation approach and risk. When the vendor claims there's no need for developers to use their brains they're all too eager to believe it.

rapsey 9y ago
> On the other hand when companies and maintainers are honest about the limitations it allows for a much easier conversation about how those limitations affect our products and how to trade off the mitigation approach and risk. Yeah well that's a poor sales strategy. Being honest does not pay the rent.
- noir-york 9y ago
  And being dishonest does?
  - rapsey 9y ago
    mongodb
    - mhluongo 9y ago
      Justified response IMO. Their sales machine has left a significant negative impact on the industry by setting impossible expectations
    - 1_2__4 9y ago
      There are two types of Mongo shops in the world: 1) Their product hasn't launched yet. 2) They desperately regret using Mongo and are trying to get rid of it.
      - cookiecaper 9y ago
        You seriously underestimate the depth of commitment that people have to their decisions. MongoDB is undeniably a wreck (though I hear it's been getting better in recent years), but I've come across very few shops who took a look at the wreck and said "This was a mistake". Rather, they usually just say "Let's buy more consulting services, being on the cutting-edge is expensive but it's worth it!" Everything is a mind game. People have identified their use of things like Mongo as being on the forefront of a developing technology, it makes them feel important and interesting. Try taking that meaning away from them and see how it goes for you. The practicalities of actually using the thing hardly matter. And is the guy who initially advocated for Mongo going to show up with his tail between his legs and admit he made a mistake? Nope, even if he wants to, that would be a big hit for him career-wise and after our mid-20s most of us have been disabused of our egalitarian notions and know better than to do that. RethinkDB is the "good engineering" counter to MongoDB. Didn't oversell, worked hard to build a world-class product that targeted the same general product class. Compare for yourself and see what you get by proceeding with an engineering emphasis. Marketing is mandatory, and developers are naive if they believe they or their field is immune.
      - specialist 9y ago
        3) Incompetent and don't realize their turgid stack isn't working correctly.
      - specialist 9y ago
        3) Incompetent and don't realize their turgid stack isn't working correctly.
  - jack9 9y ago
    This is a core strategy of con-men. The recent discussion between Sam Harris and Scott Adams might be interesting to you. Take into account that moral and good are synonymous with truth, to Sam Harris (strict rationalist) and Scott Adams is a consequentialist/utilitarian.
  - cookiecaper 9y ago
    Um, yes? We've redefined parameters around "honest" to include sales and marketing efforts because they are practically essential for modern life, but from a basic perspective, there are definite lies by omission and very likely some lies by commission in virtually all attempts to get people to buy stuff. There's also a lowest common denominator effect, where the other guy's marketing makes false claim X, and if your marketing doesn't, you are at a big disadvantage. Most of the time competitors aren't dumb enough to make a claim that is so blatantly false as to be legally actionable; as long as they steer clear of that high bar, they will make a lot of gains by making a misleading claim (note: they may make a lot of gains even if they can be held legally accountable, as that is a slow and expensive process, and the expected cost/penalty may fall far short of the expected profit).
  - freshhawk 9y ago
    Evidence says "Hell yes. Obviously."
sidlls 9y ago
I'd love to have only the problem of Junior developers to pass experience to. I currently have to deal with "senior" developers and architects who desperately want to put some "Big Data" stuff on their resumes and constantly chase after things like Kafka even when it's not justified.
- cookiecaper 9y ago
  As in everything else, the portion of actually useful and competent decision-makers in tech is vanishingly small. There are plenty of fine worker bees, but they're all too easy for marketers to divert. Ironically, such diversion is normally done with promises that deploying NEW_TECH_Z (which is almost always OLD_TECH_Y dressed up in a different outfit) will instantly make users useful and competent.
- closeparen 9y ago
  Compared to what? I've often heard wisdom like "it's irresponsible to use Kafka when you could just use RabbitMQ" but why does that statement not work equally well in the opposite direction? It seems like some "you don't need this fad technology" sentiments don't provide a whole lot of justification for sticking with the unfashionable choice. Does it all come down to "the devil you know?" What if you aren't that experienced with either choice?
  - sidlls 9y ago
    > I've often heard wisdom like "it's irresponsible to use Kafka when you could just use RabbitMQ" but why does that statement not work equally well in the opposite direction? It could, in some circumstances. Generally, though, the two have only a very small overlap with respect to messaging use cases. One was designed to be general purpose and solve a variety of MQ use cases and serve even "dumb" clients. One was designed very specifically to impose a high burden of state tracking on clients for a very specific paradigm. > It seems like some "you don't need this fad technology" sentiments don't provide a whole lot of justification for sticking with the unfashionable choice. The "unfashionable choice" that works doesn't need justification. The new shiny one does.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

by 1_2__4 9y ago

rapsey 9y ago

> On the other hand when companies and maintainers are honest about the limitations it allows for a much easier conversation about how those limitations affect our products and how to trade off the mitigation approach and risk. Yeah well that's a poor sales strategy. Being honest does not pay the rent.

noir-york 9y ago
And being dishonest does?
- rapsey 9y ago
  mongodb
  - mhluongo 9y ago
    Justified response IMO. Their sales machine has left a significant negative impact on the industry by setting impossible expectations
  - 1_2__4 9y ago
    There are two types of Mongo shops in the world: 1) Their product hasn't launched yet. 2) They desperately regret using Mongo and are trying to get rid of it.
    - cookiecaper 9y ago
      You seriously underestimate the depth of commitment that people have to their decisions. MongoDB is undeniably a wreck (though I hear it's been getting better in recent years), but I've come across very few shops who took a look at the wreck and said "This was a mistake". Rather, they usually just say "Let's buy more consulting services, being on the cutting-edge is expensive but it's worth it!" Everything is a mind game. People have identified their use of things like Mongo as being on the forefront of a developing technology, it makes them feel important and interesting. Try taking that meaning away from them and see how it goes for you. The practicalities of actually using the thing hardly matter. And is the guy who initially advocated for Mongo going to show up with his tail between his legs and admit he made a mistake? Nope, even if he wants to, that would be a big hit for him career-wise and after our mid-20s most of us have been disabused of our egalitarian notions and know better than to do that. RethinkDB is the "good engineering" counter to MongoDB. Didn't oversell, worked hard to build a world-class product that targeted the same general product class. Compare for yourself and see what you get by proceeding with an engineering emphasis. Marketing is mandatory, and developers are naive if they believe they or their field is immune.
    - specialist 9y ago
      3) Incompetent and don't realize their turgid stack isn't working correctly.
    - specialist 9y ago
      3) Incompetent and don't realize their turgid stack isn't working correctly.
- jack9 9y ago
  This is a core strategy of con-men. The recent discussion between Sam Harris and Scott Adams might be interesting to you. Take into account that moral and good are synonymous with truth, to Sam Harris (strict rationalist) and Scott Adams is a consequentialist/utilitarian.
- cookiecaper 9y ago
  Um, yes? We've redefined parameters around "honest" to include sales and marketing efforts because they are practically essential for modern life, but from a basic perspective, there are definite lies by omission and very likely some lies by commission in virtually all attempts to get people to buy stuff. There's also a lowest common denominator effect, where the other guy's marketing makes false claim X, and if your marketing doesn't, you are at a big disadvantage. Most of the time competitors aren't dumb enough to make a claim that is so blatantly false as to be legally actionable; as long as they steer clear of that high bar, they will make a lot of gains by making a misleading claim (note: they may make a lot of gains even if they can be held legally accountable, as that is a slow and expensive process, and the expected cost/penalty may fall far short of the expected profit).
- freshhawk 9y ago
  Evidence says "Hell yes. Obviously."

sidlls 9y ago

I'd love to have only the problem of Junior developers to pass experience to. I currently have to deal with "senior" developers and architects who desperately want to put some "Big Data" stuff on their resumes and constantly chase after things like Kafka even when it's not justified.

cookiecaper 9y ago
As in everything else, the portion of actually useful and competent decision-makers in tech is vanishingly small. There are plenty of fine worker bees, but they're all too easy for marketers to divert. Ironically, such diversion is normally done with promises that deploying NEW_TECH_Z (which is almost always OLD_TECH_Y dressed up in a different outfit) will instantly make users useful and competent.
closeparen 9y ago
Compared to what? I've often heard wisdom like "it's irresponsible to use Kafka when you could just use RabbitMQ" but why does that statement not work equally well in the opposite direction? It seems like some "you don't need this fad technology" sentiments don't provide a whole lot of justification for sticking with the unfashionable choice. Does it all come down to "the devil you know?" What if you aren't that experienced with either choice?
- sidlls 9y ago
  > I've often heard wisdom like "it's irresponsible to use Kafka when you could just use RabbitMQ" but why does that statement not work equally well in the opposite direction? It could, in some circumstances. Generally, though, the two have only a very small overlap with respect to messaging use cases. One was designed to be general purpose and solve a variety of MQ use cases and serve even "dumb" clients. One was designed very specifically to impose a high burden of state tracking on clients for a very specific paradigm. > It seems like some "you don't need this fad technology" sentiments don't provide a whole lot of justification for sticking with the unfashionable choice. The "unfashionable choice" that works doesn't need justification. The new shiny one does.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]