4 ms·

An Argument for Dozenalism

17 points by ecommercematt 16y ago

jacquesm 16y ago
April fools day was a while ago. "What is ultimately and urgently needed, then, is a dozenalization of the SI base units of the metric system." Right. And that after calling 'decimal time' a limit case of absurdity by decimalist agitators ? (iirc it was just a marketing stunt by swatch). What's this then, a limit case of absurdity by duodecimalist agitators ? It's funny, but nobody in their right mind is going to switch to base 12 any time soon. Hard to tell if these guys are serious: http://www.dozenal.org/index.php?u=31 http://www.dozenal.org/index.php?u=31 I hereby propose we switch to base 11, prime numbers are so much more interesting than all these composites.
- hugh3 16y ago
  Perhaps what we really need is an extra two fingers each.
  - gojomo 16y ago
    Perhaps instead we should discard the largely-superfluous pinky-fingers and pinky-toes, and finally achieve a 'natural' mapping from our appendages to computer-friendly hexadecimal. Oh, the symmetry! Four appendages of four digits each, able to count up to 2^4 -- or represent up to 2^16 with independent positioning! While adding two fingers would require genetic-engineering or body-modification beyond current technology, the necessary tools for removing fingers exist in most garages, basements -- or even kitchens. Shouldn't our 'digits' be digital-friendly?
  - btilly 16y ago
    Count on the knuckles of the fingers of one hand. (Fingers, not counting the thumb.) Using both hands and positional notation you can easily count to a gross.
- btilly 16y ago
  Right. And that after calling 'decimal time' a limit case of absurdity by decimalist agitators ? (iirc it was just a marketing stunt by swatch). You need to read more closely. The article claimed that decimal time was an excess of the French Revolution. The French revolution was over 200 years ago, which predates anything in your memory by quite a bit. And indeed, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_time verifies that during the French Revolution, when the metric system was invented, the French also tried to introduce decimal time. This was the same time period that they tried to decimalize the quarter circle, resulting in a measurement system with 400 gradians in the circle. And yes, it is accurate to call this a limit case of absurdity. As for the article itself, it is impossible to say how serious it is. It is true that everyone accepts that it would be a lot of work to switch to a dozenal system. However it is absolutely true that a dozenal system would be much more convenient.
  - hugh3 16y ago
    However it is absolutely true that a dozenal system would be much more convenient. How is that, exactly? Even once we've solved the problem of convincing everybody on Earth that it's a good idea, and the other problem of going back and burning and reprinting every existing book, newspaper, film and inscription so that nobody need ever face the confusion of having to translate back and forth between old decimal and new dozenal numbers, what's the big upside again? That we no longer have to say "a third of a kilogram" and can just say "400 grams"?
    - btilly 16y ago
      That is one upside. Another is that the times table is much simpler to memorize. Another is that when storing round numbers of things, it is more likely that we'll have convenient packings. Another is that a dozenal based measurement system is convenient enough in enough places to justify using dozenal based time and angle measurements, making for easier conversions. (For instance in the metric system it is sometimes convenient to think in terms of km/hour and other times m/s. Converting between the two is a PITA. Using dozenal everywhere would make that conversion entirely unnecessary.) There are many small details, but every one you compare finds conveniences for the dozenal system that aren't there for the decimal one. However it is clear that the wins aren't nearly enough to justify the transition in any reasonable time frame. Which is why the dozenal movement is bound to remain an amusing curiousity.
jimfl 16y ago
In the short story "Tlön, Uqbar, and the Orbis Tertius," Borges writes about a short discussion of base 12, which he calls (at least in translation) duodecimal. This is interwoven with a discussion of the 1001 nights, which I found odd, so I wondered what 1001 base 12 was. It turns out to be a rather unremarkable number: 1729. Given the time that the story was published, it is possible that Borges, who was fascinated by mathematics and always encoding maths concepts into his stories, had read the anecdote about the Hardy-Ramanujan number, and hid it purposefully in the story. Edit: anyone interested in reading more about how Borges incorporated mathematics into his stories might find this book worthwhile http://www.amazon.com/Unimaginable-Mathematics-Borges-Library-Babel/dp/0195334574 http://www.amazon.com/Unimaginable-Mathematics-Borges-Librar...

17 points by ecommercematt 16y ago

April fools day was a while ago. "What is ultimately and urgently needed, then, is a dozenalization of the SI base units of the metric system." Right. And that after calling 'decimal time' a limit case of absurdity by decimalist agitators ? (iirc it was just a marketing stunt by swatch). What's this then, a limit case of absurdity by duodecimalist agitators ? It's funny, but nobody in their right mind is going to switch to base 12 any time soon. Hard to tell if these guys are serious: http://www.dozenal.org/index.php?u=31 http://www.dozenal.org/index.php?u=31 I hereby propose we switch to base 11, prime numbers are so much more interesting than all these composites.

hugh3 16y ago
Perhaps what we really need is an extra two fingers each.
- gojomo 16y ago
  Perhaps instead we should discard the largely-superfluous pinky-fingers and pinky-toes, and finally achieve a 'natural' mapping from our appendages to computer-friendly hexadecimal. Oh, the symmetry! Four appendages of four digits each, able to count up to 2^4 -- or represent up to 2^16 with independent positioning! While adding two fingers would require genetic-engineering or body-modification beyond current technology, the necessary tools for removing fingers exist in most garages, basements -- or even kitchens. Shouldn't our 'digits' be digital-friendly?
- btilly 16y ago
  Count on the knuckles of the fingers of one hand. (Fingers, not counting the thumb.) Using both hands and positional notation you can easily count to a gross.
btilly 16y ago
Right. And that after calling 'decimal time' a limit case of absurdity by decimalist agitators ? (iirc it was just a marketing stunt by swatch). You need to read more closely. The article claimed that decimal time was an excess of the French Revolution. The French revolution was over 200 years ago, which predates anything in your memory by quite a bit. And indeed, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_time verifies that during the French Revolution, when the metric system was invented, the French also tried to introduce decimal time. This was the same time period that they tried to decimalize the quarter circle, resulting in a measurement system with 400 gradians in the circle. And yes, it is accurate to call this a limit case of absurdity. As for the article itself, it is impossible to say how serious it is. It is true that everyone accepts that it would be a lot of work to switch to a dozenal system. However it is absolutely true that a dozenal system would be much more convenient.
- hugh3 16y ago
  However it is absolutely true that a dozenal system would be much more convenient. How is that, exactly? Even once we've solved the problem of convincing everybody on Earth that it's a good idea, and the other problem of going back and burning and reprinting every existing book, newspaper, film and inscription so that nobody need ever face the confusion of having to translate back and forth between old decimal and new dozenal numbers, what's the big upside again? That we no longer have to say "a third of a kilogram" and can just say "400 grams"?
  - btilly 16y ago
    That is one upside. Another is that the times table is much simpler to memorize. Another is that when storing round numbers of things, it is more likely that we'll have convenient packings. Another is that a dozenal based measurement system is convenient enough in enough places to justify using dozenal based time and angle measurements, making for easier conversions. (For instance in the metric system it is sometimes convenient to think in terms of km/hour and other times m/s. Converting between the two is a PITA. Using dozenal everywhere would make that conversion entirely unnecessary.) There are many small details, but every one you compare finds conveniences for the dozenal system that aren't there for the decimal one. However it is clear that the wins aren't nearly enough to justify the transition in any reasonable time frame. Which is why the dozenal movement is bound to remain an amusing curiousity.

jimfl 16y ago

In the short story "Tlön, Uqbar, and the Orbis Tertius," Borges writes about a short discussion of base 12, which he calls (at least in translation) duodecimal. This is interwoven with a discussion of the 1001 nights, which I found odd, so I wondered what 1001 base 12 was. It turns out to be a rather unremarkable number: 1729. Given the time that the story was published, it is possible that Borges, who was fascinated by mathematics and always encoding maths concepts into his stories, had read the anecdote about the Hardy-Ramanujan number, and hid it purposefully in the story. Edit: anyone interested in reading more about how Borges incorporated mathematics into his stories might find this book worthwhile http://www.amazon.com/Unimaginable-Mathematics-Borges-Library-Babel/dp/0195334574 http://www.amazon.com/Unimaginable-Mathematics-Borges-Librar...