7 ms·

You let the kid off too easily. He is already selling artists sheet music that they absolutely need for their profession via instant download for the cost of a

by jws 16y ago

You let the kid off too easily. He is already selling artists sheet music that they absolutely need for their profession via instant download for the cost of a coffee and the teenager in question still believes it is her right to misappropriate a copy instead because she doesn't want to pay. The author isn't trying to preserve his work's integrity, whatever that is, he is trying to preserve his income. He is a song writer. He genre is not a big recording industry item, mechanical royalties will be minimal. There are no concert tee shirts ,to assuage anyone's guilt here.

megablast 16y ago
If I want a coffee, I take my cash to the corner store and buy it. It is easy. Doing any commerce on the internet is nowhere near as easy as that. You are clearly someone who has never not had a credit card. These things are almost impossible without one, and certainly not as easy as getting a coffee. And news flash, lots of student and poor people DO NOT HAVE A CREDIT CARD! And even if you do, you go to some dodgy website that you have never heard of before and just enter in your credit card details? Well, I don't.
- sliverstorm 16y ago
  > If I want a coffee, I take my cash to the corner store and buy it. It is easy. Doing any commerce on the internet is nowhere near as easy as that. If you have the right form of currency, it's EASIER. You don't have to go to the corner store. > You are clearly someone who has never not had a credit card Are you kidding me? I didn't have a credit card until I was 20. How did I get by, how did I survive? Any checking account nowadays has the option of a debit card, which works just as well. Any bank account at all can be accessed by Paypal, and bank accounts are not nearly as exclusive- I opened my own savings account when I was 12. Friends, parents, friends' parents... Someone you know has a credit card, and you can pay them back. Besides, just because you don't posses the means to pay for something doesn't mean you can take it. If I go into a corner store with only Yen in my pocket, I can't very well pay for a magazine even though I have the money. Does that justify me to steal it? Not a chance. P.S. it's actually easier to get a cc if you are a student...
- jws 16y ago
  There is a Walgreens about every 10,000 feet where I live. Each one of them has prepaid credit cards in the impulse buy racks[1] by the checkout. Anyone can convert their physical dollars into credit card dollars. Would you like the remains of your shattered argument in a bag or may I dispose of them for you?[2] [1] And pregnancy tests. Who impulse buys a pregnancy test? [2] Ok, that was uncalled for, but its hot and I'm not feeling civil right now, and you started it with the all caps.
  - megablast 16y ago
    Congratulations. As someone who does not live in the US, I have never seen these before, and I am pretty sure they are new as in the last few years. They do sound like a solution to my problem, and I will investigate if they have them here in Australia.
mquander 16y ago
Yes, but the author is couching his rhetoric in claims to "fairness" and moral righteousness. I think his stories are most revealing of his position: I am an author, I tend to believe that I should be able to get paid for doing that work (and it is work, Eleanor, it's really hard work)...You think you're entitled to deny all of those people their rightful share of the work they do. I don't understand why you think that. That's the core of his argument. He thinks that since he has been making a living this way for a long time, and it has worked out all right for everyone, his way is the right way and anything else is of dubious morals, because why would you want to deprive a good man of good work? The discussion seems to be about whether the girl has a "right" to download or share his sheet music. In my opinion, she can do it, and that's that; should he have a "right" to stop her? He has not convinced me that there's any reason he should have that right.
- sliverstorm 16y ago
  > In my opinion, she can do it, and that's that; should he have a "right" to stop her? I certainly can brutally kill puppies. Do you have the right to stop me if I own them? Stop trying to twist the argument. There's a helluva lot of things you can do, but whether somebody else has the right to intervene and stop you is irrelevant.
  - mquander 16y ago
    And most of those things that you can do, you should be able to do. The exceptions are what need to be justified. I don't see a lot of justification for claiming that piracy is wrong or bad. It's directly helping someone and not directly hurting anyone, and I haven't even seen someone claim credibly that it's hurting artists' pocketbooks. Certainly this girl's actions were a totally victimless crime. I certainly don't see evidence that piracy is resulting in a lower quality of art, and it's obviously great in the short-term for consumers (especially ones like teenagers who have a hard time buying music and movies and books.)
- cschwarm 16y ago
  > He has not convinced me that there's any reason he should have that right. OK, suppose your girlfriend agrees to have you take some rather private photos of her under the condition that you will never make these available to someone else. (Or the other way 'round if you're a girl) One day you break up and you're sharing these photos. Does she has the right to stop you distributing them? According to your logic, she has not. After all, you're just sharing among friends. And it's not as if she's loosing income of something like that. Following the authors logic, your girlfriend has the right to stop you distributing them. For you made a promise before she agreed -- you basically entered a contract. His point is that he offered copies of his work under certain conditions (called copyright). In other words, he expected everybody who agreed to the contract not to copy and redistribute his work. He expects them to hold their promise, their site of the contract. Nobody's is forced or required to enter the contract and make this promise. You're free to make your own music and share it. Or used someone's music who doesn't expect you to make a similar promise. However, violating your promise (ie. changing the conditions of the contract) is clearly immoral. Or would you want to be the victim of somebody who changes the contract conditions after the deal was made? Or would you want to be lied to, or have your friends break their promises? If the answer is 'No', then copying stuff without a license is clearly immoral.
kiba 16y ago
The author isn't trying to preserve his work's integrity, whatever that is, he is trying to preserve his income. She may be rationalizing her actions, but from my ethical perspective as a libertarian, she's actually in the right. She didn't stole anything, nor did she agree to a explicit contract with the author. The author don't actually have the right to any profits, only profits that he endeavorer and successfully earn in the market. But that doesn't matter much to me, anyway. As long as people like him don't lay their hand on the results of my intellectual labor, I don't care about what happens to the pirates and the copyright mafia. I will be very happy to eat the lunch of other game developers at the end of this silly cultural war.
- jacobolus 16y ago
  WTF? The author’s sales of sheet music to everyone who buys it include an explicit contract (called the laws of whatever country the sale is done in). The girl seems to have gotten a copy from some party to that contract, explicitly against its terms, and is now re-trading the item in question (the sheet music file), on her own. Except the law, as written, quite clearly applies just as much to her as it does to the person who violated his contract with the author in providing her the sheet music. The nature of the stuff being traded makes it somewhat different than physical goods, but in principle this is no different any other illegal redistribution of goods, for example reprinting cheap copies of some copyrighted book and selling them on the street at barely above cost. When you talk about your “ethical perspective as a libertarian”, what you apparently mean is that you don’t believe in the concept of copyright (or other “intellectual property”, or perhaps even that society’s laws should be binding on citizens). This is not the usual libertarian “ethical perspective”, and you should be careful about implying that libertarians necessarily feel the same way you do. > successfully earn in the market There is only a market for sheet music insofar as that sheet music can’t be trivially gotten for free from a third party. Basically, your comment says something like “we should eliminate the market for sheet music, and the author should do something else.” Well okay, that might be what happens anyway, but that’s not “the market” deciding. For markets to exist requires a set of social structures which regulate its form and function. When those structures break down, as in this case, the market is destroyed. (These social constraints need not be written down or enforced by an official police force, etc. They just need to be commonly agreed upon and have some social weight. I need to know you won’t take my money and run without giving me the promised chicken, or spend all your time copying the book I sold you and selling it behind my back while I’m trying to write the next one.)
chc 16y ago
I think you're dodging the question here. If you can show us credible numbers to indicate that stopping this girl from getting her hands on his music has significantly improved his income, that would be interesting. But I don't think you can, so bringing up his income is a red herring. He's fighting this girl on moral grounds. (Ironically, he brings up fair use as an excuse for his copying of media, but won't recognize that copying sheet music for a high school project probably falls under the same umbrella.)
- protomyth 16y ago
  Well, it did subtract the amount he makes off one sheet music sale.
  - mquander 16y ago
    It absolutely did not. The girl made it clear that she doesn't have a credit card and can't/won't convince her parents to pay, so there's no way he would have gotten a sale out of her.
    - peterwwillis 16y ago
      so he should subpoena the website for logs of every person she traded his music to and ask them all if they all have the same convenient lack of ability to pay $3.99 online? get real. one person shares with 10, those 10 with 100, and whoops, now he's lost over $400 in potential sales because she wanted to be nice and share. no i can not prove he would have had these sales, nor do i need to. you also seem to ignore his other suggestion: check out the song book at the library.
      - chc 16y ago
        Your logic falls apart at the end. Checking out books from a library must be equally wrong. Hundreds of people can do it, and then he's out over a thousand dollars in potential sales.
        16y ago
SapphireSun 16y ago
There's an even more subtle point here that teenagers don't have an easy way to purchase things in the online economy without their parent's permission. Part of the reason she's trading is because she can get it no other way. If I'm an aspiring artist, I'll be damned if some four dollar barrier stands between me achieving my dreams and not at all. It's pretty clear that she had already tried to convince her parents about this, but failed. Teens can use cash to buy whatever they want, but not online.

by jws 16y ago

megablast 16y ago

If I want a coffee, I take my cash to the corner store and buy it. It is easy. Doing any commerce on the internet is nowhere near as easy as that. You are clearly someone who has never not had a credit card. These things are almost impossible without one, and certainly not as easy as getting a coffee. And news flash, lots of student and poor people DO NOT HAVE A CREDIT CARD! And even if you do, you go to some dodgy website that you have never heard of before and just enter in your credit card details? Well, I don't.

sliverstorm 16y ago
> If I want a coffee, I take my cash to the corner store and buy it. It is easy. Doing any commerce on the internet is nowhere near as easy as that. If you have the right form of currency, it's EASIER. You don't have to go to the corner store. > You are clearly someone who has never not had a credit card Are you kidding me? I didn't have a credit card until I was 20. How did I get by, how did I survive? Any checking account nowadays has the option of a debit card, which works just as well. Any bank account at all can be accessed by Paypal, and bank accounts are not nearly as exclusive- I opened my own savings account when I was 12. Friends, parents, friends' parents... Someone you know has a credit card, and you can pay them back. Besides, just because you don't posses the means to pay for something doesn't mean you can take it. If I go into a corner store with only Yen in my pocket, I can't very well pay for a magazine even though I have the money. Does that justify me to steal it? Not a chance. P.S. it's actually easier to get a cc if you are a student...
jws 16y ago
There is a Walgreens about every 10,000 feet where I live. Each one of them has prepaid credit cards in the impulse buy racks[1] by the checkout. Anyone can convert their physical dollars into credit card dollars. Would you like the remains of your shattered argument in a bag or may I dispose of them for you?[2] [1] And pregnancy tests. Who impulse buys a pregnancy test? [2] Ok, that was uncalled for, but its hot and I'm not feeling civil right now, and you started it with the all caps.
- megablast 16y ago
  Congratulations. As someone who does not live in the US, I have never seen these before, and I am pretty sure they are new as in the last few years. They do sound like a solution to my problem, and I will investigate if they have them here in Australia.

mquander 16y ago

Yes, but the author is couching his rhetoric in claims to "fairness" and moral righteousness. I think his stories are most revealing of his position: I am an author, I tend to believe that I should be able to get paid for doing that work (and it is work, Eleanor, it's really hard work)...You think you're entitled to deny all of those people their rightful share of the work they do. I don't understand why you think that. That's the core of his argument. He thinks that since he has been making a living this way for a long time, and it has worked out all right for everyone, his way is the right way and anything else is of dubious morals, because why would you want to deprive a good man of good work? The discussion seems to be about whether the girl has a "right" to download or share his sheet music. In my opinion, she can do it, and that's that; should he have a "right" to stop her? He has not convinced me that there's any reason he should have that right.

sliverstorm 16y ago
> In my opinion, she can do it, and that's that; should he have a "right" to stop her? I certainly can brutally kill puppies. Do you have the right to stop me if I own them? Stop trying to twist the argument. There's a helluva lot of things you can do, but whether somebody else has the right to intervene and stop you is irrelevant.
- mquander 16y ago
  And most of those things that you can do, you should be able to do. The exceptions are what need to be justified. I don't see a lot of justification for claiming that piracy is wrong or bad. It's directly helping someone and not directly hurting anyone, and I haven't even seen someone claim credibly that it's hurting artists' pocketbooks. Certainly this girl's actions were a totally victimless crime. I certainly don't see evidence that piracy is resulting in a lower quality of art, and it's obviously great in the short-term for consumers (especially ones like teenagers who have a hard time buying music and movies and books.)
cschwarm 16y ago
> He has not convinced me that there's any reason he should have that right. OK, suppose your girlfriend agrees to have you take some rather private photos of her under the condition that you will never make these available to someone else. (Or the other way 'round if you're a girl) One day you break up and you're sharing these photos. Does she has the right to stop you distributing them? According to your logic, she has not. After all, you're just sharing among friends. And it's not as if she's loosing income of something like that. Following the authors logic, your girlfriend has the right to stop you distributing them. For you made a promise before she agreed -- you basically entered a contract. His point is that he offered copies of his work under certain conditions (called copyright). In other words, he expected everybody who agreed to the contract not to copy and redistribute his work. He expects them to hold their promise, their site of the contract. Nobody's is forced or required to enter the contract and make this promise. You're free to make your own music and share it. Or used someone's music who doesn't expect you to make a similar promise. However, violating your promise (ie. changing the conditions of the contract) is clearly immoral. Or would you want to be the victim of somebody who changes the contract conditions after the deal was made? Or would you want to be lied to, or have your friends break their promises? If the answer is 'No', then copying stuff without a license is clearly immoral.

kiba 16y ago

The author isn't trying to preserve his work's integrity, whatever that is, he is trying to preserve his income. She may be rationalizing her actions, but from my ethical perspective as a libertarian, she's actually in the right. She didn't stole anything, nor did she agree to a explicit contract with the author. The author don't actually have the right to any profits, only profits that he endeavorer and successfully earn in the market. But that doesn't matter much to me, anyway. As long as people like him don't lay their hand on the results of my intellectual labor, I don't care about what happens to the pirates and the copyright mafia. I will be very happy to eat the lunch of other game developers at the end of this silly cultural war.

jacobolus 16y ago
WTF? The author’s sales of sheet music to everyone who buys it include an explicit contract (called the laws of whatever country the sale is done in). The girl seems to have gotten a copy from some party to that contract, explicitly against its terms, and is now re-trading the item in question (the sheet music file), on her own. Except the law, as written, quite clearly applies just as much to her as it does to the person who violated his contract with the author in providing her the sheet music. The nature of the stuff being traded makes it somewhat different than physical goods, but in principle this is no different any other illegal redistribution of goods, for example reprinting cheap copies of some copyrighted book and selling them on the street at barely above cost. When you talk about your “ethical perspective as a libertarian”, what you apparently mean is that you don’t believe in the concept of copyright (or other “intellectual property”, or perhaps even that society’s laws should be binding on citizens). This is not the usual libertarian “ethical perspective”, and you should be careful about implying that libertarians necessarily feel the same way you do. > successfully earn in the market There is only a market for sheet music insofar as that sheet music can’t be trivially gotten for free from a third party. Basically, your comment says something like “we should eliminate the market for sheet music, and the author should do something else.” Well okay, that might be what happens anyway, but that’s not “the market” deciding. For markets to exist requires a set of social structures which regulate its form and function. When those structures break down, as in this case, the market is destroyed. (These social constraints need not be written down or enforced by an official police force, etc. They just need to be commonly agreed upon and have some social weight. I need to know you won’t take my money and run without giving me the promised chicken, or spend all your time copying the book I sold you and selling it behind my back while I’m trying to write the next one.)

chc 16y ago

I think you're dodging the question here. If you can show us credible numbers to indicate that stopping this girl from getting her hands on his music has significantly improved his income, that would be interesting. But I don't think you can, so bringing up his income is a red herring. He's fighting this girl on moral grounds. (Ironically, he brings up fair use as an excuse for his copying of media, but won't recognize that copying sheet music for a high school project probably falls under the same umbrella.)

protomyth 16y ago
Well, it did subtract the amount he makes off one sheet music sale.
- mquander 16y ago
  It absolutely did not. The girl made it clear that she doesn't have a credit card and can't/won't convince her parents to pay, so there's no way he would have gotten a sale out of her.
  - peterwwillis 16y ago
    so he should subpoena the website for logs of every person she traded his music to and ask them all if they all have the same convenient lack of ability to pay $3.99 online? get real. one person shares with 10, those 10 with 100, and whoops, now he's lost over $400 in potential sales because she wanted to be nice and share. no i can not prove he would have had these sales, nor do i need to. you also seem to ignore his other suggestion: check out the song book at the library.
    - chc 16y ago
      Your logic falls apart at the end. Checking out books from a library must be equally wrong. Hundreds of people can do it, and then he's out over a thousand dollars in potential sales.
      - 16y ago

SapphireSun 16y ago

There's an even more subtle point here that teenagers don't have an easy way to purchase things in the online economy without their parent's permission. Part of the reason she's trading is because she can get it no other way. If I'm an aspiring artist, I'll be damned if some four dollar barrier stands between me achieving my dreams and not at all. It's pretty clear that she had already tried to convince her parents about this, but failed. Teens can use cash to buy whatever they want, but not online.