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I don't think that we as a species don't know what to try, I just think that a lot of the things that make a utopia involve wrestling away power and money from

I don't think that we as a species don't know what to try, I just think that a lot of the things that make a utopia involve wrestling away power and money from those who have it, and they have enough power and money to prevent that from happening. I suspect, though it's hard to prove, that we have the resources to meet the basic needs of every human on the planet: food, water, and shelter. And I think most visions of utopia would agree on that as an element. But what we don't have enough for is everyone's greed. And as resources have grown, we've watched human greed grow to swallow most of that growth. Many people believe greed to be an inherent human attribute. So it's no wonder people have lost hope that human greed will ever be beaten, or that growth will outstrip greed. So far we've seen little evidence that greed cannot consume most progress indefinitely.

TeMPOraL 9y ago
I wish I knew how real greed looks like. I realized that I've never seen or experienced it in real life - all the people I know are not greedy, so my only other reference point is descriptions of greed from stories about morality. I strongly suspect though, that this real greed is a rare thing. But I 100% with Animats agree that we lack direction. In fact, we got where we are by being directionless! Or maybe indirect would be a better world. But the fact still is, most of the things we enjoy today were not designed to be good or useful. They were designed to make most money. And mind you, I appreciate how awesome the market economy is in automagically balancing the needs of people with resources available. But we got to the point where making more money is the primary motivation for everything. Not whether it's useful. Not whether it's high-quality. Only how much can it sell. And today, we've mastered all the ways to maximize sale value by avoiding creating useful, high-quality things. This hurts me, deeply, because it means that in the adult world there isn't many people to talk with about anything serious. Even the desire is widely mocked in proffesional circles. "Business is most important". "If it doesn't focus on business needs, it's bad engineering". Professional growth matters only in so far as it lets you land a better job. Etc. For me, a great leap towards utopia would be to somehow relegate the market to a supporting role, instead of using it as a sole arbiter of what should be done and how.
- Animats 9y ago
  That's a healthy view. Markets optimize for something, but it may not be what you want. [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1999/03/the-market-as-god/306397/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1999/03/the-mar...
- kerkeslager 9y ago
  I think you're missing some very obvious greed in your life. People design things to make money rather than to be good or useful because of greed. If we sought to make the world a better place instead of make the most money, we'd set aside the money and design things to be good and useful. Of course, some people do that, but those people don't succed in making lots of money, so we don't hear about them unless we actively seek that information out. I suspect that the reason you don't see the greed that motivates so much of human action around you is that you, like me, are greedy. Time after time I've chosen jobs that made me money rather than improving the world. It's hard for me to look at greed in others without seeing the greed in myself. But if you really want the market relegated to a secondary role, then you want a way to defeat greed, so that people stop letting greed for the most money dictate their actions.

TeMPOraL 9y ago

I wish I knew how real greed looks like. I realized that I've never seen or experienced it in real life - all the people I know are not greedy, so my only other reference point is descriptions of greed from stories about morality. I strongly suspect though, that this real greed is a rare thing. But I 100% with Animats agree that we lack direction. In fact, we got where we are by being directionless! Or maybe indirect would be a better world. But the fact still is, most of the things we enjoy today were not designed to be good or useful. They were designed to make most money. And mind you, I appreciate how awesome the market economy is in automagically balancing the needs of people with resources available. But we got to the point where making more money is the primary motivation for everything. Not whether it's useful. Not whether it's high-quality. Only how much can it sell. And today, we've mastered all the ways to maximize sale value by avoiding creating useful, high-quality things. This hurts me, deeply, because it means that in the adult world there isn't many people to talk with about anything serious. Even the desire is widely mocked in proffesional circles. "Business is most important". "If it doesn't focus on business needs, it's bad engineering". Professional growth matters only in so far as it lets you land a better job. Etc. For me, a great leap towards utopia would be to somehow relegate the market to a supporting role, instead of using it as a sole arbiter of what should be done and how.

Animats 9y ago
That's a healthy view. Markets optimize for something, but it may not be what you want. [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1999/03/the-market-as-god/306397/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1999/03/the-mar...
kerkeslager 9y ago
I think you're missing some very obvious greed in your life. People design things to make money rather than to be good or useful because of greed. If we sought to make the world a better place instead of make the most money, we'd set aside the money and design things to be good and useful. Of course, some people do that, but those people don't succed in making lots of money, so we don't hear about them unless we actively seek that information out. I suspect that the reason you don't see the greed that motivates so much of human action around you is that you, like me, are greedy. Time after time I've chosen jobs that made me money rather than improving the world. It's hard for me to look at greed in others without seeing the greed in myself. But if you really want the market relegated to a secondary role, then you want a way to defeat greed, so that people stop letting greed for the most money dictate their actions.